What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I am playing at my normal 5/10 limit game the other day and 10 minutes into the game I am on the button with AKs. I do what I normally do and raise. The big blind is a dealer I know his name but haven't played him before even though he apparently knows me and my image.

He raises me and I immediately reraise. We end up capping it. the flop comes K high rainbow. He checks and I bet.

He flips out and folds face up saying "anything but a king!!" I look down and there are two Aces staring back. I think about it for a second, and turn my hand faceup. "Oh" he says "I thought you flopped a set, the way you played preflop" WTF

This is the latest example from people who actually pay attention (usually against dealers & a few regulars). Luckily, not too many people pay attention. But my question is am I leaving money on the table with this kind of image, or should I stay tight. I can sometimes go an hour between playing hands, sometimes people notice, sometimes not.

Also, what is your image? Is is what you want it to be? Do you actively cultivate it, or do you even worry about it? Thanks for the help guys, I am learning alot from you all.

my two scents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

lol. there is no such thing as a bad image. you just need to adjust your play to exploit your image.

simply stated. if they think you're tight, bluff more.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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Luckily, not too many people pay attention.

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When more people pay attention, then worry about your image.

In the example you gave, your image won you the pot.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

Why would you want to change your image? Your opponents are capping the action pre-flop and then checking and folding to your bets on the flop. How could it be any better than that?

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I have a very tight image. For example, playing last month in a no fold-em 4/8 limit hold em game with a kill, I caused people to talk about how tight I was by being the only person to fold in a multi-way limped pot when I was the SB (this after raising UTG an orbit or two earlier and having pocket aces in one of my few hands shown down). One reason that I folded was that I had 73o or something equally weak and would have had to post a kill if I won the pot, but people do notice that I fold in the blinds a lot more than everyone else and the chatty players sometimes comment on it. Also, in a limped pot, I once mucked in middle position and accidentally exposed an ace (I had A4o) and the table was shocked that I could fold an ace for one bet.

If someone bets a queen high flush using both hole cards and gets raised on the river, it seems to be an automatic three bet against anyone but me. I also think that a nut flush usually won't be three-bet against my river raise if the board is paired but might against other players. I also suspect that if I limp UTG I get fewer calls behind me than if anyone else limps.

I also have an image as a good hand-reader. One table was convinced that I tossed away a flush against a player who check-raised me on the end after his A3 connected on an ace-high flop and he hit running threes for a full house. I've also shown the ability to successfully value-bet second pair and correctly check behind with two pair, both when the flush card comes on the river at different times in the same game.

Since I generally play in loose-passive limit games, I generally don't have very many bluffing opportunities, although I have shown a penchant for picking out which opponents I can bluff off of a split pot when we are both playing the board, such as when there is a straight showing. Since the table is loose, what I seem to be doing is changing people from betting and calling a raise to checking and calling a bet.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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Why would you want to change your image? Your opponents are capping the action pre-flop and then checking and folding the best hand to your bets on the flop. How could it be any better than that?

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Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

if most people aren't paying attention it shouldn't be a problem.

my image is somewhat low key i beleive. i don't talk about poker. i don't talk about poker plays. i don't talk about odds. i don't justify plays. i don't tell bad beats. i don't complain when drawn out on. players should recognise i play a tight agressive style, but i am very untimidating and i continue to get great action.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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Why would you want to change your image? Your opponents are capping the action pre-flop and then checking and folding the best hand to your bets on the flop. How could it be any better than that?

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It just seems to me that my image is opposite of alot of people here. it's tight to the point of pokrlikeitsprose's image. It is an auto 3bet on alot of hands against alot of players except me, they go into check call mode or fold. A few months ago, I was playing against a regular and I raise utg with KK, he reraises me on the button, so I instareraise and he instamucks AQ. Things like that are starting me wondering if LAG is better

I just kind of wondered to the majority here who have loose aggressive images, if they work on that image, if they prefer that to a tight one, and if people like me and p.l.i.p. could earn a few more bets by giving more action

the example I gave in op worked out that time. But I had to be amazed by that and really start to think about my image after that one and if there was a better way out there for me to earn a little more.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am playing at my normal 5/10 limit game the other day and 10 minutes into the game I am on the button with AKs. I do what I normally do and raise. The big blind is a dealer I know his name but haven't played him before even though he apparently knows me and my image.

He raises me and I immediately reraise. We end up capping it. the flop comes K high rainbow. He checks and I bet.

He flips out and folds face up saying "anything but a king!!" I look down and there are two Aces staring back. I think about it for a second, and turn my hand faceup. "Oh" he says "I thought you flopped a set, the way you played preflop" WTF

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I want to play with this man for the rest of my life, it sounds like a wet dream! Throw around some aggression and he folds... yum!

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

Mason has written about how a tight image is likely the best one for limit hold'em. Your post gives a good example of why he is correct. If you were playing $200-$400, you might want to change your style a bit, but for low and medium stakes games, tight-aggressive will get the money.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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Why would you want to change your image? Your opponents are capping the action pre-flop and then checking and folding the best hand to your bets on the flop. How could it be any better than that?

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It just seems to me that my image is opposite of alot of people here. it's tight to the point of pokrlikeitsprose's image. It is an auto 3bet on alot of hands against alot of players except me, they go into check call mode or fold. A few months ago, I was playing against a regular and I raise utg with KK, he reraises me on the button, so I instareraise and he instamucks AQ. Things like that are starting me wondering if LAG is better

I just kind of wondered to the majority here who have loose aggressive images, if they work on that image, if they prefer that to a tight one, and if people like me and p.l.i.p. could earn a few more bets by giving more action

the example I gave in op worked out that time. But I had to be amazed by that and really start to think about my image after that one and if there was a better way out there for me to earn a little more.

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The suggestion I would give here if you don't want someone to fold when you reraise preflop is not to "instareraise". Probably better if you don't "insta" do anything at any point - it looks like you at least have a decision to make and your hand isn't so good that your only conceivable option is to raise.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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I can sometimes go an hour between playing hands

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You sure you just have a tight image and you aren't a rock? An image is what people think of you, not the way you play your cards.

I prefer the LAG image, its more fun first of all. It's friendlier than the "quiet guy who never plays a hand" which helps me because some people softplay the "friendly guy spewing chips". I raise loudly and spew the chips into the pot (I can cut chips well but pretty much never do), I talk a lot, I make fun of people I am friendly with between hands, I say stupid things about odd showdowns, flops, etc. and oh yeah I play less hands than anyone else at the table (sometimes).

-DeathDonkey

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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Why would you want to change your image? Your opponents are capping the action pre-flop and then checking and folding the best hand to your bets on the flop. How could it be any better than that?

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A few months ago, I was playing against a regular and I raise utg with KK, he reraises me on the button, so I instareraise and he instamucks AQ. Things like that are starting me wondering if LAG is better


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That's another great result for you. He was getting 7-1 odds to beat you with an ace, and he folded. These people seem to be completely intimidated by you and they're making terrible plays as a result.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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Why would you want to change your image? Your opponents are capping the action pre-flop and then checking and folding the best hand to your bets on the flop. How could it be any better than that?

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It just seems to me that my image is opposite of alot of people here. it's tight to the point of pokrlikeitsprose's image. It is an auto 3bet on alot of hands against alot of players except me, they go into check call mode or fold. A few months ago, I was playing against a regular and I raise utg with KK, he reraises me on the button, so I instareraise and he instamucks AQ. Things like that are starting me wondering if LAG is better

I just kind of wondered to the majority here who have loose aggressive images, if they work on that image, if they prefer that to a tight one, and if people like me and p.l.i.p. could earn a few more bets by giving more action

the example I gave in op worked out that time. But I had to be amazed by that and really start to think about my image after that one and if there was a better way out there for me to earn a little more.

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I tend to agree that at the lower limit games that giving a little more action will elicit more action when you have a hand. But don't be crazy about it. Pick your spots - like anytime you have a playable hand OTB, raise or re-raise it. Or pick a hand, like 9-Ts or pocket 6s and raise 'em up. Sometimes you will hit and people will see those hands. But the point its you are raising a lot of hands so people can't put you on anything so they will just cold call all kinds of crap and it is better for you in the long run.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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Why would you want to change your image? Your opponents are capping the action pre-flop and then checking and folding the best hand to your bets on the flop. How could it be any better than that?

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A few months ago, I was playing against a regular and I raise utg with KK, he reraises me on the button, so I instareraise and he instamucks AQ. Things like that are starting me wondering if LAG is better


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That's another great result for you. He was getting 7-1 odds to beat you with an ace, and he folded. These people seem to be completely intimidated by you and they're making terrible plays as a result.

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I disagree with this - wouldn't it be right to fold his AQ if he knew you had Kings? AQo only has about 28% equity vs KK, and that is only if he will chase the ace until the river if it doesn't flop. I really don't think he has the odds to call just in hopes an Ace will flop.

If the "instaraise" made him put the OP on a range of, say, AA, KK, or AK, then the AQ fold would definately be right.

Rob

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

semi-bluff more often

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I used to play LAG and found good results though with high variance. Lately I've changed my strategy, I actually spend the first hour or two cultivating the tighest image possible, this allows me to shift gears later on and steal alot of pots by taking advantage of position, reads and my image.

I know I'm giving up some early opportunities but I more than make up for it with what I steal later. I frequently get people to lay down better hands because they think I've got them crushed.

This new strategy is much more profitable for me than LAG was and is also much lower varience.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I like to play a mix of styles, depending on mood and table composition. Generally I'm tight enough to get those who pay attention out of a pot, but loose enough to get action when I want it. I also try to be as friendly as possible, even when I'd rather be iPodding it, play up my luck, and console those who lost, cuz yeah, gotta chase that, cards were just unlucky.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

Seems like a good thread to turn into Barry Horowitz. Pat away.....

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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I prefer the LAG image, its more fun first of all. It's friendlier than the "quiet guy who never plays a hand" which helps me because some people softplay the "friendly guy spewing chips". I raise loudly and spew the chips into the pot (I can cut chips well but pretty much never do), I talk a lot, I make fun of people I am friendly with between hands, I say stupid things about odd showdowns, flops, etc. and oh yeah I play less hands than anyone else at the table (sometimes).


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I honestly don't think I could get away with a LAG image, unless you consider Matusow-esque monkey tilt to be a useful image. Can it be?

I'm friendly. I try to talk about things like sports, the food served in the casino, and anything that anyone is talking about. But I'm not a storyteller.

It seems like I just have an aura of seriousness and intelligence about me. Even though I absolutely refuse to discuss poker strategy at the table or talk about anyone's play. Possibly partly because I refuse to say what my hole cards are if I don't have to show. I'm the guy who gets needled by the guy next to me to admit that I had aces last hand no matter how much I try to change the subject. I can pretend to be disinterested. I can pretend to be on tilt. My range doesn't extend to being able to pretend I am stupid. I can come off as weird or creepy if I choose, but not unintelligent. I've been told that I give off the Sklansky-esque condescension vibe when talking about other stuff. So I might as well let them perceive me as tighter than I actually am.

Really, though, this feels like stuff that I was planning on possibly posting on in the psychology forum.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

Yeah I mean it has to work with your personality, don't do something uncomfortable for you. That said in your spot I'd just agree with him and then make a joke "yeah aces, I always have aces when I see the flop so watch out! Me and dealer chop chop in parking lot".

-DeathDonkey

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I think it was Mike Caro who said if you make a lot of noise when you're in a hand, they'll think you play every hand.

I tend to follow his advice closely, but then I'm a rather noisy fellow.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am playing at my normal 5/10 limit game the other day and 10 minutes into the game I am on the button with AKs. I do what I normally do and raise. The big blind is a dealer I know his name but haven't played him before even though he apparently knows me and my image.

He raises me and I immediately reraise. We end up capping it. the flop comes K high rainbow. He checks and I bet.

He flips out and folds face up saying "anything but a king!!" I look down and there are two Aces staring back. I think about it for a second, and turn my hand faceup. "Oh" he says "I thought you flopped a set, the way you played preflop" WTF

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Why flip your cards up? You made a standard play and you got credit for the nuts. You got a better hand to fold. Because you turned your cards up that is less likely to happen again at this session - or with this player in the future.

True it was a crazy fold because you raised on the button and he should have given you credit for a wide range of hands - which makes him a very bad player who thinks you are tighter than a nun's rectum. Don't squander that advantage just to show off at the table.

I generally look at my image as a session to session thing. Perhaps half of the players at Foxwoods 10/20 LHE won't know me. The other half are usually more influenced by recent results anyway. Some don't even really remember me. But know your opponents!!! At 4/8 this shouldn't be an issue but as you move up, your image - whatever it is - should be a factor in your decisions against astute opponents.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am playing at my normal 5/10 limit game the other day and 10 minutes into the game I am on the button with AKs. I do what I normally do and raise. The big blind is a dealer I know his name but haven't played him before even though he apparently knows me and my image.

He raises me and I immediately reraise. We end up capping it. the flop comes K high rainbow. He checks and I bet.

He flips out and folds face up saying "anything but a king!!" I look down and there are two Aces staring back. I think about it for a second, and turn my hand faceup. "Oh" he says "I thought you flopped a set, the way you played preflop" WTF

This is the latest example from people who actually pay attention (usually against dealers & a few regulars). Luckily, not too many people pay attention. But my question is am I leaving money on the table with this kind of image, or should I stay tight. I can sometimes go an hour between playing hands, sometimes people notice, sometimes not.

Also, what is your image? Is is what you want it to be? Do you actively cultivate it, or do you even worry about it? Thanks for the help guys, I am learning alot from you all.

my two scents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Folding with an overpair on that flop is sick. Table image can be formed, but sometimes the cards dealt do the shaping. Tight image in a tight game doesnt sound like fun. What range of hands are you willing to play? My limit game could use some work. I will play most coordinated cards to the flop, folding if nothing interesting comes up.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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That's another great result for you. He was getting 7-1 odds to beat you with an ace, and he folded. These people seem to be completely intimidated by you and they're making terrible plays as a result.

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I disagree with this - wouldn't it be right to fold his AQ if he knew you had Kings? AQo only has about 28% equity vs KK, and that is only if he will chase the ace until the river if it doesn't flop. I really don't think he has the odds to call just in hopes an Ace will flop.



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Counting the blinds, he was actually getting about 8.5 to 1.
Given hands of AQ and KK, an Ace will flop 17.96% of the time, or 1 in 5.57 times. Where do you think the 28% equity comes from, just the turn and river cards?
Yes, his opponent had pot odds to call and hope an Ace flops.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

OK, sounds like you checked this out more closely than I did (wasn't thinking of there being that much money in the pot either). What if the instareraise made him accurately put heron on a range of AA, KK or AK though? Then would he be correct to fold? I know having an ace makes hero less likely to have AK or AA, but my instinct still tells me he would be right to fold.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

people always like to give me advice. Also i ask questions alot anout the food and the jackpot sometimes.

Its funny really how many people like tot ell me how to play. amybe its cuz i come off as a nice guy and try to be friendly and look young.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I end up with a tight table image. It can't be helped. When mostly everyone calls with 10-9 up and any two suited its difficult to stay camoflaged from observant players.
That's fine, though. I preflop raise, there will be callers despite my image, who will invariable play hit to win. I bet whether I make or miss the flop, and I'm mostly given credit for made hands, regardless. If the flop comes high, they think I hit. If it comes low, and I bet, they think I've got 10-10 or better. I play aggressively after the flop, and make that known, so I am pretty confident that whenever someone plays back I am behind. I then fold. I show very few hands, compared to the other players, and I always tell them I had a made hand. Most people associate pre-flop tightness with cheapness or timidity so they think you don't bluff, and you get credit for hands you shouldn't.

If I do get caught with my hand in the cookie jar (a very rare event) I will stop the bet any hand routine for about a hour and we go back to the same script.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Profit.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

my image is tight, always is and always will be. Makes for great stealing opportunities against observant players.

Pretty much the same MO as EHG.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
OK, sounds like you checked this out more closely than I did (wasn't thinking of there being that much money in the pot either). What if the instareraise made him accurately put heron on a range of AA, KK or AK though? Then would he be correct to fold? I know having an ace makes hero less likely to have AK or AA, but my instinct still tells me he would be right to fold.

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Putting someone on exactly KK and then folding this pot is absolute sheer insanity in LHE. This is the button and BB. The typical hand range is much broader. I would certainly pop you back preflop with 10/10 plus in either position and I am stone cold tight- tight.

Post flop, I have Aces on a K high Board. I think I'm ahead, regardless. Sounds like somebody is awfully pessimistic. Yeah, he may have KK, but he may have AK or less, and this is a big pot. Folding is a big mistake.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

Mine is tight and very agg with any hand I play(limit). That said,(& some will disagree with me) but you'd be amazed at the action you get for hours when you show down a busted draw or marg hand that you raised PF with. I will do this from time to time during the session. If one is just raising with QQ, KK, AA, AK & AQ type hands that is giving away way too much info(I learned this from a 2+2er). I still raise the big type hands PF but I will throw in raises with a more spec hands and if it doesn't connect try and show it down as cheaply as possible. As long as this is not overdone, doing this cost a few extra bets but gets you plenty of action if you just play ultra tight after that. Overall tight play still works the best for me but don't be afraid to mix it up a bit here and there.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mason has written about how a tight image is likely the best one for limit hold'em. Your post gives a good example of why he is correct. If you were playing $200-$400, you might want to change your style a bit, but for low and medium stakes games, tight-aggressive will get the money.

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Like others have said the reason this works is because most people in low limit games don't pay attention to anything but the cards they hold and the ones on the board (sometimes not even the board).

If you find that everyone folds when you raise, bluff more often. It will do 2 things. Allow you to steal a few small pots (some medium ones too, maybe) and change your image to a really good one (probably the best), tight, aggressive & tricky. People will have a hard time reading your hands; they will become frustrated and tilt trying to adjust to your play.

I'm not saying that I have mastered this, but I sure hate it when someone is able to do this to me. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

You obviously need to be selective with who you try to bluff, but even when you get caught it is a good thing, in the long run.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I play tight preflop (usually) but super aggro. I bet draws constantly. I'll raise bottom pair if I think it'll give me an advantage. I cbet whenever I feel no one has anything, regardless of what I have.

This is in itself enough to get me action whenever I want it in a live limit game.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

Don't worry about what specific image you have. Worry about knowing it and exploiting it. Wynn 15 regulars think I'm loose and a little crazy and ALWAYS running well. Commerce 40 players invariably think I'm way way too tight.

You'd be surprised how much of a difference can be made by how you put your chips into the pot.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

So do like I do: PF raise with 42s and 87o once in a while, they will wonder why you insta muck to a bet on a AKJr board, 'I had pocket 9's...'

Or like I did betting every street on K82r flop with my 87o hitting two pair on the river and everyone left mucks and I showed it anyhow, and some whiny old fart asks what I had with that... Nice to know you can't pay attention, sir and yes your remaining $16 in chips will be gone very soon.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since the table is loose, what I seem to be doing is changing people from betting and calling a raise to checking and calling a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]That is MUCH less preferable than the OP's examples if you actually are tight.
If I have a chance to build an image, I like to "train" my opponents to fold to my bets/raises by playing super tight at first then I open up my game once I see that they are paying attention. If they're not paying attention, just keep betting the nuts and getting paid off...
sounds like you are right on track cmoke.

edit: P.S. like several other posters have said, whichever way you play, it is great to have an image so long as you can get your opponents to make mistakes because of it.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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He flips out and folds face up saying "anything but a king!!" I look down and there are two Aces staring back. I think about it for a second, and turn my hand faceup. "Oh" he says "I thought you flopped a set, the way you played preflop" WTF

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You were doing great until you showed down just TPTK - next time fold face down and say "dang, I flopped a set... sure you don't want to pay me off??"

In this case it was your image that WON THE POT. Why would you want to change this?


AB

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

a retard who looks retarded

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

I'm the middle aged Steve Danneman looking guy with the Hawaiian shirt that the 25 year old ball capp wearing, sun glasses, black T-Shirt guys are looking for.

The thing is....I'm working to isolate them too. There's nothing more fun.

Re: What\'s your table image?...And is mine a problem?
 

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You were doing great until you showed down just TPTK -
In this case it was your image that WON THE POT. Why would you want to change this?
AB

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The reason at the time was because I thought I wanted him to doubt himself next time we faced eachother.

Reading through these posts makes me realize my Q was kind of foolish. Whatever your image is, just know it, and exploit it.

I just wondered about everyone with a LAG mentality as that is not really me.

my two scents [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]