KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

First orbit, actually the 3rd hand of the tournament, in a $10K buy in NLHE event and hero is dealt KK in the CO. Both hero and villian did not play either of the first two hands so they both have 10,000 starting stacks. Blinds are 25-50. Hero is in the CO and villian is two seats to his right. Folds to villian who raises to 200. Folds to hero who reraises it to 1,200. Folds back to villian who shoves for 10,000. Would you call or fold if you were hero?

I have asked a few people about this and I was surprised to hear both sides claim it was easy 1) easy fold or 2) easy call. Nobody thought it was a tough decision but people took opposite positions.

I often fall into the trap of putting people on hands at the table based on the way I would play and not on the way that they actually play.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

call but your raise to 1200 was WAY too much.

A player in a 10k event could think "there is no way that he would make that huge reraise with AA/KK, he must have a hand like AK/JJ" when the villain subsequently shoves there is enough doubt created by your poor raise size to make this an easy call

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

I would say the chance of AA is greater than 50%. I believe I would tank and then fold.

I also would have reraised to 600.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

I would usually fold and would have not raised to 1200 PF.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

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I would say the chance of AA is greater than 50%. I believe I would tank and then fold.

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I'll second this.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

I guess the question is "Does villian have AA?" If not then we call, if so then we fold. The way I arrive at answering that question is to put myself in villian shoes and see if I would play AA like that.

If it matters, I was the button and was not the villian or the hero.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

this deep, against a good player, i think i would mix in like 50/50 with preflop calls and pre flop raises to like 700-800. problem is that this call invites other players in since they're getting better pot odds. advantage is obviously disguising your hand and may be easier to win a medium pot this way.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

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If it matters, I was the button and was not the villian or the hero.

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Then I can ask in what $10K buy-in event are players making such donkish overbet re-raises and shoves?

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

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If it matters, I was the button and was not the villian or the hero.

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Then I can ask in what $10K buy-in event are players making such donkish overbet re-raises and shoves?

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This was at Foxwoods last year.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

Biggest laydown of my life.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

I think this is 95% AK or AA. Math is easy from there.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

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...in what $10K buy-in event are players making such donkish overbet re-raises and shoves?

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Lately, it seems like ALL OF THEM [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


FWIW, I recently had a similar situation, (But at a MUCH Lower Buy In...$110) In MP, I called an AI with KK, Villain had A-Qo, hit the Ace on the flop, and I was out before I posted my first blind.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

I know someone that had almost the exact same thing happened....it was his very 1st hand at the 2005 WSOP Main Event. The betting wasn't exactly the same but close. Long story short, after the all-in he goes in the tank for a few minutes, tells the table he didn't come all this way to go out on the 1st hand (lives in Texas) announced fold and shows the table his kings. Other guy shows aces. Then goes on to cash. Not a ton, 12,500, but still not bad considering the 1st hand and he qualified from a $200 sattelite.

This is my secondary answer...
 

TJ Clouthier folds.

Jamie Gold calls.

Re: This is my secondary answer...
 

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TJ Clouthier folds.

Jamie Gold calls.

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Right.
Are you Jamie Gold?

Re: This is my secondary answer...
 

fold its to early to risk your whole stack. you will find better opportuinities to double up from this donk

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

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I guess the question is "Does villian have AA?" If not then we call, if so then we fold. The way I arrive at answering that question is to put myself in villian shoes and see if I would play AA like that.


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But what if you wouldn't play ANY hand like that ?

I've seen people answer this kind of question by saying "well he couldn't possibly play any hand other than Aces like that so he must have Aces". I'm often tempted to reply "well he couldn't possibly play any hand other than 72 like that so he must have 72".

If villain has played his hand in a way that's irrational with any holding then we are forced to conclude that he is an irrational player, and so I really don't see how you can narrow him down to one hand.

Re: This is my secondary answer...
 

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TJ Clouthier folds.

Jamie Gold calls.

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Right.
Are you Jamie Gold?

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Let me put it this way, I have TJ's book and I haven't seen one from Jamie yet.

Maybe Jamie will write a pup-up book like Danny Devito in "Throw Momma From The Train".

Oh, and I forgot to add: Jamie Gold calls....and spikes a K.

Re: KK 1st orbit $10K buy in
 

I'm pretty sure this is generally a fold. If it turns out that this guy is a complete donk and you don't find out until an orbit or two later, then chalk it up to very bad luck that this hand had to happen out of order.

Re: This is my secondary answer...
 

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you will find better opportuinities to double up from this donk

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The problem is there are 8 other players who will also be finding these opportunities. Pass yours up, and he'll most likely donk them off to someone else before you get another shot.

Re: This is my secondary answer...
 

its a tough decision, the initial rereaise to 1200 is problematic because it makes us look scared adn trying to overbet the pot to win asap