5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

felt like folding the flop because i don't have the 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and it could get raised behind me. raising also occured to me and is probably better then calling. i also thought i should fold the turn since BB is suppose to have a big hand to bet into 5 players.


Full Tilt 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (15 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, SB folds, BB folds.

River: (17.50 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 19.50 BB

thanks for your time.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

I like every street.

It's certainly bad news when BB leads into a big field twice but the pot is rather large...

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

I'd play it the same

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

i would raise preflop.

especially given the game.

the rest i mix my play between raising the flop(which i would usually do) and waiting for the turn(which i would do a significant minority of the time).

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

The only question, is whether or not to raise the flop, or the 'safe' turn. I like the turn raise, and other than that, I don't think there is anything to discuss here.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

so turn raise is a bluff, right?

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

I thought it was a value bet.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

I raise the flop here every time.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

to many Overcards can came on the Turn. I think not to raise the flop is a mistake.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the flop here every time.

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While I'm sure that is profitable, I think you will find that waiting in big pots with vulnerable hands until the turn (assuming a good card falls) to raise is more profitable.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

I think this pot is far too big to not raise the flop.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

the reason i usually raise the flop in this spot is quite a few of scare cards can come on the turn that could induce the BB to check after he gets alot of callers on the flop. in fact, just getting called in so many spots by itself might scare the BB into checking the hands we beat and betting the ones that have us crushed.

if i had AK on an A78 two-tone board in this size pot with this many players, i would like waiting for the turn a bit more. not saying i wouldn't raise the flop pretty often in that instance as well, but i would probably raise the turn more.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this pot is far too big to not raise the flop.

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That's the reason why you don't raise it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The only draws that fold are the backdoor ones... but if that is your intention (or your opponets will fold their live draws - but players generally call too light, not fold too much) then raising is fine.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

With this board I prefer a flop raise to waiting. There just aren't enough blanks to our hand that we'd be waiting for. Pull the trigger while you're in a good position to do so.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
With this board I prefer a flop raise to waiting. There just aren't enough blanks to our hand that we'd be waiting for. Pull the trigger while you're in a good position to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

What you said doesn't make sense. If the turn in general is going to be that bad then we should be thinking about folding as opposed to raising. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

Raise the flop because we face a lot of the field with 2 cold and can thin out some draws and over cards. There are still some blanks and cards that can help us so it's not like we're dead in the water just yet. I'm raising to help out my equity because I think we're ahead a lot of the time here and I want to push my edge.

I guess you could fold and over pair as well, but I tend to like that kind of hand. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

While people are mentioning that there are too many dangerous cards to come on the turn, it seems like everyone's forgotten BB just raised in a 234,849 way pot, even online is this ever worse than KQ?

Maybe it's just because I'm a showdown monkey but I can't really lay an overpair down, and if I'm behind I'd rather do the raising while it's cheap.(getting 3bet costs you half as much if you do it on the flop)

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop because we face a lot of the field with 2 cold and can thin out some draws and over cards. There are still some blanks and cards that can help us so it's not like we're dead in the water just yet. I'm raising to help out my equity because I think we're ahead a lot of the time here and I want to push my edge.

I guess you could fold and over pair as well, but I tend to like that kind of hand. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate to just repeat myself but...

1) The pot is huge. Everybody is getting the odds to draw even with our raise. That is why we wait for the turn because raising the big street cuts down on their odds plus a double big bet just looks scarier.

2) If you think we have an equity edge now on the flop that edge will be much much higher on the turn if a good card falls.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

Okay, my 2 cents:

I don't mind the preflop limp second in; you can go either way with a hand like 88 in that situation. I may be partially biased by the fact that I hate pocket eights, tho. Easy call after BB raises; if I'd openlimped &amp; gotten those limpers behind me I'd reraise to try to isolate.

The flop is the street that's drawing question marks, so let me give it a shot: if we're calling on the flop, it must be because we believe we have the best hand a good portion of the time. Otherwise, we are not getting odds to draw at what amounts to a 1-outer (who wants to see the 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the turn?). If we believe that we have the best hand &amp; are therefore continuing, we should be raising.

No, it's not going to get a flush draw or OESD to fold, and it shouldn't. It probably will get bare overcards to fold, BB excepted, which wouldn't hurt in protecting our hand; when we flat call, they have odds to continue if they put themselves on as little as 3 outs.

More than that, as James once again mentioned before I chimed in, we cannot count on BB betting into us again on the turn, especially if we really do hold the best hand. Honestly, I don't know wtf he was thinking when he did bet/fold there, into 5 opponents, and then getting 17.5:1 to call while closing the action. BB made two huge errors on that street.

If he's got AK or some suited broadway combo that's not suited to diamonds, he needs to be checking that turn 100% of the time, and probably the flop as well. But even if he did have a bigger overpair, if a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes on the turn he may check (and we won't raise if he does bet), if an ace or other overcard comes he won't bet, if another 7 comes he may check, he may check even if a blank rolls off fearing that someone's got two pair or a set. Further, when we do get both a blank turn and a bet from BB, he may simply bet/call with that overpair fearing a flopped set from us (or in this case, turned trips). So really, you're raising the flop mostly for value/hand protection, but also for information which can allow us to escape the hand more cheaply when we're not ahead (and even if BB has A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], we're not ahead on the flop).

As it played out, that's a pretty easy value bet on the river.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

Raise the flop and hope to fold overs, gutshots, BD draws and get a better idea of where you are. If the turn card is safe and BB doesn't bet it out you aren't getting anyone out of the pot and if he does bet it you're often beat.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

Preflop I think either a call or raise is fine.
Postflop I really think you have to raise there to protect the probable best hand. If the BB 3 bets you are in big trouble and if anyone calls 2 behind you I would suspect a big diamond draw.

Re: 5/10 Full Tilt 88 in multiway pot as overpair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think this pot is far too big to not raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the reason why you don't raise it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The only draws that fold are the backdoor ones... but if that is your intention (or your opponets will fold their live draws - but players generally call too light, not fold too much) then raising is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Diamond draws are staying in no matter what. They are not going to fold to a turn raise either, nor should they getting close to 7:1. Raising the flop may get some overs to fold and that is a pretty good thing in this hand.

Waiting to raise a safe turn is fine too, just realize that more than 1/2 the deck is not going to be "safe".