The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

The idea of having a sticky thread in this forum has been brought up multiple times. I try to respond to each recommendation by replying to the post it was recommended in. This thread will now serve as a generic response to all inquiries related to the creation and implementation of a sticky thread in the Books/Publications forum.

Several requests have been made and I considered each one carefully. There have also been a few occasions when I presented some ideas to Mason Malmuth about possibilities for a sticky thread in this forum. Mason and I (and in some occasions myself only) have reached the decision not to have one for various reasons.

Exceptions can be and sometimes are made, but those have always been on a temporary basis. Some examples of those exceptions have included Mason's current sticky on the cover design contest and book study groups.

I don't want to say that a sticky thread will never be a permanent fixture here in the Books/Publications forum. Your opinions and requests are always taken into consideration. You're welcome to submit ideas to me at any time. If a thread were created in a way as to not conflict with the concerns of Mason and I it may be possible to make it a sticky. However, I do want to make it clear that this is not at this time and may never be something we have in this forum.

*Please note that I will keep a close eye on this thread and try to respond to all comments, suggestions, etc. I am a busy guy so your patience will sometimes be required.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

What are the concerns of Mason and yourself?

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

HI everyone:

There are many reasons why we are negative towards a sticky in this forum. One of them is simply that when it comes to books the opinions differ. So we prefer to let the discussion lead our posters to what is top notch versus what is questionable.

Another is the fact that new books are coming out all the time, and it's not just a few. In the old days I use to read every poker book that got published. Today, it's just not possible to do that. So this makes me afraid that worthwhile, but somewhat obscure books, would be left out of the post.

A third reason is that we are often accused, though it's completely false, that the only books we give good reviews to are our own, and that we deliberately downgrade competitor's books. While this is certaily not the case, the fact of the matter is that there are only a small number of non-Two Plus Two books that we do recommend, and we of course have favorable opinions of our stuff. So this is an issue we prefer not to introduce to this forum since it has the potential of distracting from the high quality discussion that happens here.

And finally, or the last one I will mention, we prefer not to deal with irate authors who would feel slighted because we did not mention their books. Most authors, even those who consistently produce a great deal of garbage, feel that their books really are quite good and can't understand our attitude towards them. Many of these authors are already unhappy with us, especially when we don't allow them to put glowing posts up about their books which are little more than press releases / advertisements, and it's not in our interest to make this unhapiness more extreme.

Best wishes,
Mason

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

I would suggest a sticky FAQ for this forum, to include, among other possible topics,

1. Why there is no title-specific sticky here (since this question gets asked every week or two).

2. How to use the Search function (or links to stickies in other forums here that have instructions on how to use the Search function).

3. Links to sites with reviews of poker books, like this

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

I assumed a sticky would link to the best threads discussing particular books, not recommendations or anything. Wouldn't that be fine? Just saves time searching. There have been good threads here on most poker books.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

Mason,

Why does a sticky that contains links to several of the better discussions violate this rule? As you say, "we prefer to let the discussion lead our posters to what is top notch versus what is questionable." So, instead of logging in every day to see another, "Which PLO books is best?" thread, why can't we say "see sticky at top for links to discussion on the topic"? You're neither advocating a particular book nor bashing an author, instead simply pointing someone to a thread where the topic has or (is currently) been discussed.

If you feel like parsing the various threads from the past would be too time-consuming, how about as one poster suggested, something like the "Official <insert game> discussion thread"? Anything, any book goes.

I've just never been clear on how this would be bad for the forum.

Edit: looks like fraac said the same only a little less long-winded.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

I'll address each of your suggestions.

[ QUOTE ]
1. Why there is no title-specific sticky here (since this question gets asked every week or two).

[/ QUOTE ]

That is exactly the purpose of this thread. It is my hope that this thread is read by all those who have thoughts related to this topic.

Another reason against this being a sticky (and any other sticky for that matter) is that it uses one of the front page spots in the forum. We do tend to have a lot of very good threads in this forum with a lot of useful information. I would hate to see a good thread go overlooked because it was not on the first page. With the cover contest or any other temp-sticky already up it would immediately double this issue.

[ QUOTE ]
2. How to use the Search function (or links to stickies in other forums here that have instructions on how to use the Search function).

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that this is not the only forum that members and readers of this site visit due to the high amounts of quality information available throughout 2+2. As you said, instructions on when and how to use the search function are already out there stickied in other forums. When taking that in consideration with the second half of my comments in your number "1." this seems quite obvious.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Links to sites with reviews of poker books, like this

[/ QUOTE ]

The response to this much related to Mason's reasons regarding other authors and publishers. It would be challenging to keep up with all the new sites popping up and maintaining 2+2's standards of quality. We, basically, would be forced to pass judgment on which sites to link and which to not. This, of course, could lead to issues that Mason mentioned.

The most obvious reason not to do this is the fact that nearly anyone that can use a computer can type "poker book reviews" in google and get a substantial list of the sites.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you feel like parsing the various threads from the past would be too time-consuming, how about as one poster suggested, something like the "Official <insert game> discussion thread"? Anything, any book goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any member is welcome to make a thread like this and link it as many time as they wish when repeat questions and such are posted. It just could not be stickied. I also think it would make it challenging to read. The more specific the threads are to a certain comment, issue, question, etc the better the thread will be. It would be quite a mess if every post regarding a certain book was in one thread.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

deac's got the fear!

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you feel like parsing the various threads from the past would be too time-consuming, how about as one poster suggested, something like the "Official <insert game> discussion thread"? Anything, any book goes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any member is welcome to make a thread like this and link it as many time as they wish when repeat questions and such are posted. It just could not be stickied. I also think it would make it challenging to read. The more specific the threads are to a certain comment, issue, question, etc the better the thread will be. It would be quite a mess if every post regarding a certain book was in one thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously this isn't my first choice.

Well, I stand as always not convinced by the arguments presented against stickies. But...there's not much point in discussing it really. Mason and deac run the forum, and as such have made it clear that the policy ain't gonna' change unless they think it's in the forum's best interest.

The majority opinion, while still valuable, isn't enough to make the change on this particular matter. Kinda' like we own 49% of the vote and they constitute the other 51%. AK vs. 99 and our AK loses the race every time.

Oh well, at the very least, responding to each and every "which book?" thread ups your post count. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

And just fyi, I do greatly appreciate the efforts of deac and Mason in this forum. Anarchy would reign with out 'em.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

For what its worth, I agree with fraac and 7n7's thoughts. An anthology type sticky as can be found in the MTT forum is more likely to stimulate quality new discussion. After a reader has been directed to a given master thread he or she may have more specific questions and may get more thoughtful replies than the standard, "What do you think about ______" thread.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

I think we need a sticky badly; a FAQ sticky.

This should include links to the best discussions on the most asked questions here - you know, Deac, the ones you quickly close with a comment about using the search function [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

This means:

Best PLO books
Best 7CS books
Best SH limit HE books
Best NL tournament books
Best NL cash game books

Discussions related to classics (TOP, HOH etc.)

And of course: Latest info on 2+2 schedule.

This would surely be a true FAQ and lead a lot of people to the places they're looking for so they won't clutter the place with the same questions again and again.

Cheers,

Smurf

PS: And keep book cover design and related non-essential issues away from my forum. Thanks [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

I think you should make a why is there no sticky sticky including Masons reply and an introduction to the search function (there are a couple of those in other stickys)


So at least besides having a what is the best book for NL Hold'em every other day, we wouldn't also have to deal with a why is there no sticky post every other day [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


And books are a fun little creatures ... there are books you'd see me recommend a year ago, but these days I really can't anymore.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

Would it be acceptable if there was an unofficial sticky, that wasnt fixed...but perhaps was bumped or commented on regularly (i.e suggestions for improvements to it, or additions for the thread etc) to keep it on the front page?

DB

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

This thread should be sticky.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be acceptable if there was an unofficial sticky, that wasn't fixed

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me put in some time thinking about this. I don't hate the idea and already have some thoughts floating around in my mind. I'll try to post the thoughts I come up with in a few days.

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

Aaahhhh ... the sticky thread lives again! Now that I have had the time to re-read it, I'd like to say that whereas Mason's sentiments are always highly appreciated, I can't quite see how they rule out a sticky with links to the best discussions for books.

<font color="red"> Warning: long and ranty! </font>

[ QUOTE ]
There are many reasons why we are negative towards a sticky in this forum. One of them is simply that when it comes to books the opinions differ. So we prefer to let the discussion lead our posters to what is top notch versus what is questionable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, opinions differing is sorta the reason we have discussion forums in the first place, and, besides, opinions about how hands should be played is hardly a problem in the strategy forums and shouldn't be here either. It's what we're here for. As for the top-notch remark, see below.

[ QUOTE ]
Another is the fact that new books are coming out all the time, and it's not just a few. In the old days I use to read every poker book that got published. Today, it's just not possible to do that. So this makes me afraid that worthwhile, but somewhat obscure books, would be left out of the post.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, the number of bad books is just one more reason to have a sticky, so we could give those in need an overview of good books and link to a discussion about them. Secondly, there's an invisible hand of consumer sentiment here, meaning that good books get much discussion, while bad books are either identified as such or simply ignored. Thirdly, if you believe worthwhile but little-known publications would be left out, by all means link to a review or a discussion in the sticky. This would lead to awareness of them which current state of affairs does not.

[ QUOTE ]
A third reason is that we are often accused, though it's completely false, that the only books we give good reviews to are our own, and that we deliberately downgrade competitor's books. While this is certaily not the case, the fact of the matter is that there are only a small number of non-Two Plus Two books that we do recommend, and we of course have favorable opinions of our stuff. So this is an issue we prefer not to introduce to this forum since it has the potential of distracting from the high quality discussion that happens here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This notion comes up every so often anyway. A sticky won't change it to the better or worse. A sticky will link to these high-quality discussions you speak of and, as above, the number and weight of the discussions will reveal what books the users here like. This hardly turns it into a Chinese propaganda machine, which in my experience is a lot more driven by a small number of "saved" users than official 2+2 staff anyway. Bear in mind that a sticky with links to the best threads about the publications that have been debated here is not necessarily a lifechanging manifesto. There's always gonna be loud whiners whatever you do. It's not a good excuse for not providing something we need. And it won't distract form the good discussions here. Rather, it will free us from having to write the same things over and over again - leaving us more time for the high-quality discussions! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
And finally, or the last one I will mention, we prefer not to deal with irate authors who would feel slighted because we did not mention their books. Most authors, even those who consistently produce a great deal of garbage, feel that their books really are quite good and can't understand our attitude towards them. Many of these authors are already unhappy with us, especially when we don't allow them to put glowing posts up about their books which are little more than press releases / advertisements, and it's not in our interest to make this unhapiness more extreme

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm ... I can imagine. I'd still say that a sticky with links to discussions about questions that come up over and over again probably won't enrage these people even more. Specifically, if there is no discussion about a book because it's just horrible (and a thread in which this fact is stated by an unlucky 2+2'er whose aunt gave it to him on his birthday does not count), then there's nothing to link to and it gets no place in the sticky. Problem solved. I spend some time in currency trading forums and they have the same problems. Trust me, there are lots of shady sellers lurking there. They have no problem locking threads started by unknowns with 2 posts that say "Wow, have you seen investment service X's site. Doesn't it look good?" And neither should you. In fact, if your sentiments were stated in the sticky, you could simply point the poor slighted bastards to the sticky and waste no more time on them!

Ahh, man. Sorry for the length of this. I'm having my morning coffee and there's nothing of interest in the newspapers. I'll go away now. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Cheers,

Smurf

Re: The stance on a Sticky Thread.
 

I understand the reasoning behind not having a sticky for posting the best poker books for each game etc but there's a way to go about doing it.

List all poker books and have them properly categorized in the different games, and psychology. Than you could have a poll to show which ones are considered the most popular, therefore its unbiased. Of course this is easier said then done with the growing number of poker books the polls would be pretty big, maybe separate stick's for each game and polls for the book.

The Question that is always brought up is "Which books should I read for this (game)"

This would probably lessen the number of these repetitive posts.