Issues with the rake
 

In Houston, the underground live games charge a premium rake. The nearest casino poker room is Lake Charles, a 2 hour drive. New Orleans is an hour flight, but with airport parking etc, its a 2 hour trip to get to Harrah's.

So, the standard rake in a 5-10 PLHE game is 5% up to $15, and in bigger games the rake is at least $20, some places higher.

In your opinion, can games be beaten where $300-400 + dealer tips (or more) is coming off the table per hour? If so, under what circumstances?

In addition, would you change your play in a $15-20 rake game versus a $5 rake game? It occurs to me that there is a vast difference between winning 10 $300 pots vs one $3000 pot. Namely, you net $2850 winning the small pots vs. $2985 winning the big pot. So, do you play even tighter in big rake games than small rake games?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

If the house gets 33BB/100, I think there can only be at most one winner at a 9 handed table.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

holy jebus in online speak that's like ~6PTBB/100 hands in rake for the 5/10 table

so like, i guess if they are quite bad and you are quite good you could win. However you'll have some serious variance. just don't play there.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

Lets say the average pot is 35 big blinds. That's 35*30 Hands/hour. So about 1000 in rakeable pots per hour. At 15% that's $150/hour. $150/30 Hand-Hours =~ 450/100 =~ 45BB/100. Not 6BB/100.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

SALAZARRRRRRRRR,

I thought it would be understood I was talking about rake per person. Anyways, your calculation seems to be correct. However I can't find the discrepancy between yours and mine:

I assume an average of $10 rake per hand. $1000/100 hands. that's 50PTBB/100 hands for the whole table. Or, if it's nine handed, about 6PTBB/100 hands per person

according to your calcs it would be 2.5PTBB/100 per person at a 9-handed table

:/

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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Lets say the average pot is 35 big blinds. That's 35*30 Hands/hour. So about 1000 big blinds in rakeable pots per hour

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perhaps that's your mistake?

SALAZARRRRRRRRRRR

Re: Issues with the rake
 

all i know is if 150 is leaving the table each hour, gl at a decent rate if you are a GREAT player.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

Im from houston could tell u of a few underground games that dont rake ridiculous amounts that are high quality which Ive played in before

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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Im from houston could tell u of a few underground games that dont rake ridiculous amounts that are high quality which Ive played in before

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PM me. The places I refer to are the TopHat, VIP, Prime, the Ballpark, etc. I know some of the Asian games like Tony Thai's rake more.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

5% up to $15 at 5/10 isn't nearly as bad as 10% up to $4 plus $1 for the dealer toke at live 1/2. Can live 1/2 be beaten?

5% up to $15 at 5/10 is identical to 5% up to $3 at 1/2, which is the exact rake structure you'll find online. Can online 1/2 be beaten?

Last time there was a thread on live winrates, it was said that $100/hour was attainable at the softest 5/10 games. If you assume $200 pots on average, and you win 2.5 pots per hour, then you're paying $25 per hour rather than $12 per hour you'd pay in time collections at other places (plus dealer tokes). Certainly beatable.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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5% up to $15 at 5/10 is identical to 5% up to $3 at 1/2, which is the exact rake structure you'll find online. Can online 1/2 be beaten?

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hmm good point. I suppose if my assumption was correct there was $10 rake per hand, this would imply the game is crazy wild

In any case my brain hurts so I'll just I don't know anything

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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5% up to $15 at 5/10 isn't nearly as bad as 10% up to $4 plus $1 for the dealer toke at live 1/2. Can live 1/2 be beaten?

5% up to $15 at 5/10 is identical to 5% up to $3 at 1/2, which is the exact rake structure you'll find online. Can online 1/2 be beaten?

Last time there was a thread on live winrates, it was said that $100/hour was attainable at the softest 5/10 games. If you assume $200 pots on average, and you win 2.5 pots per hour, then you're paying $25 per hour rather than $12 per hour you'd pay in time collections at other places (plus dealer tokes). Certainly beatable.

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Beatable, sure. Worthwhile? Not likely. The major problem is the fish will get killed off far too quickly, and over a much shorter period of time than average. The $$$ coming off the table is also going to mess up the game in the fact that it creates much shallower stacks than normal, therefore decreasing any edge even further. If everyone bought in for 100BB's, in three hours, average stack after tips is going to be more like 80BB's,(lord knows most dumb enough to play this game aren't going to be tipping $1 a hand...) Even at 200BB's, a 12 hour session drops the average stack to ~120BB's.

If I'm playing in that game, they better have gourmet chefs on-hand, limo service, and all top-shelf liquor served by beautiful topless waitresses.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

Ok I usually just read posts but since I know a little bit about this I will post..I have both run a game in Houston and dealt a game in Houston in the past and I can tell you that the $$ they make is ludicrous....On average the house will make between $125-175 a down(30 minutes) and the dealer will pull between $25-45 a down.... The 1st response would be no way can this game be beat... BUT, and its a large BUT the players that come to these games are horrible and give $$ away routinely...There is 1 guy who i wont mention who comes in with $10k cash and is 0-49 at cashing out a penny...Furthermore, it costs a lot of $$ to run a game in Houston...There is rent($2500 a mo) security, food, beverages(including any alcohol a player wants) Cigarettes for the players, cigars, etc etc etc and the most important thing TABBBBB and thats not the drink that comes in pink can... For those ppl who have never played in an illegal game, tab is slang for Credit... Basically noone brings cash to a game because if vice busts the game they confiscate all the $$ and worse if the game gets robbed then all your $$ is gone...So the house needs to insure that they make enough to cover the tab b/c sometimes it takes days, weeks, or longer before a player pays his debt and in some cases they never do yet find another game to get credit at...Unethical yes, but happens all the time! oh btw u ALWAYS get paid when u win before u leave even tho u dont have to pay up front the night u lose.... So, can the game be beat? maybe...Is it better to drive 5 hrs rd trip to maybe get in a game full of nits at a riverboat casino to only pay $5 rake...i think not...The rake hurts the person who plays (wins) most pots..The $$ that comes off tbl isnt an issue b/c there is a house full of suckers and the game never quits...So play fewer pots stay shorter periods of time and gl...

Re: Issues with the rake
 

I would never play in a game that raked $15 a pot. Thats ridicolous. And I thought Commerce rakas were bad lol

Re: Issues with the rake
 

despite the lack of sentences in russ' comment, my experience is basically everything he said is true.

BTW 5% capped at $25 a hand is standard in perth, in underground games and casinos.

I know a lot of players who beat these games over large samples. At the underground i used to play at, the rake was higher still and i would basically ALWAYS win when I played there.

Honestly you would be surprised at how much variance goes down once you factor in how huge your edge can really be against these players (and also, at underground games it is a lot more unethical to cashout when u win a big pot or whatever; most people are expected to stay at least 4 hours unless they bust..).

Re: Issues with the rake
 

I confront a rake that's actually worse than yours but the games are still VERY profitable. The main thing you have to think about is how much of an edge do you have over the other players... That's the MOST important thing. If it's small you guys are basically passing the $$ back and forth until the house gets it all.
The live game I play is a 2-5 nl he game w/ 5% rake capped at 25€!!! But the game is fantastic because the players have no clue what's going on. If they have black AA on a 456 of hearts flop there is no way on earth they're folding. You basically double up on every good hand you decide to play. So the way I see it is this- would you pay 25€ to double up your stack? Hell, I'd pay €60+ if it was that much of a gurantee... But a few words of caution: throw your bluffs out of the window- and I mean never... And if the game gets short handed take a walk... The variance is too high and you'll basically be passing the cash back and forth at huge costs.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

thats a lot of money coming off of the table for sure. im not gonna speculate on if it is beatable or not because that has too much to do with factors that i have no idea about. certainly it could be beat if the players were bad enough and you were good enough...

anyways the one thing im interested in but not sure about is if you should tighten up or not. my first impression was that you should play significantly tighter and make many less stabs at small ptts, which is my general strategy in games where the rake is prohibitive. If these games were raked at 10% with the same max i would definitely think that would be the right course of action. Since the game is 5% though im not sure if that adjustment is necessary or not in small pots. maybe someone with more experience in these sorts of games could comment.

if it were me in the game i think i would still tighten up considerably. even aside from the rake it sounds like this is not the sort of game that you are going to make a lot of money stealing small pots. i would have an overall tighter gameplan and not fight as much as usual over the small pots.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

I'm in Dallas myself and have heard of high rakes at the 5-10 and up underground games here.

Just so I'm clear, 10% rake is considered very high, 5% is maybe ok if the max is low enough?

Re: Issues with the rake
 

I have been to places that are 10% up to $10 for 1/2 pot. Houston clubs make a killing from poker being illegal here.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

doubt the game is beatable..

if for some reason I HAD to play in it.. no limped pots

Re: Issues with the rake
 

Brazilian games are 10% rake without cap.

NL5k is like nl25, so its beatable. (seriously).

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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doubt the game is beatable..

if for some reason I HAD to play in it.. no limped pots

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wtf?

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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doubt the game is beatable..

if for some reason I HAD to play in it.. no limped pots

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wtf?

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every pot I played in would be raised or reraised

Re: Issues with the rake
 

I think that a little part of me would die each time I saw them raking 3 nickels from each pot instead of 3 $1 chips.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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I have been to places that are 10% up to $10 for 1/2 pot. Houston clubs make a killing from poker being illegal here.

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$10 max rake in a 1/2 game?? Is that beatable at all? I know this isn't HS but that rake seems nuts. Assume $200 buyin for the 1/2 and $1000 for 5/10 with same structure, the 5/10 would have 10% $50 max rake. Pardon me?

Re: Issues with the rake
 

Dallas games don't rake nearly as much lleisure...send me a PM if u need a hookup...

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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I have been to places that are 10% up to $10 for 1/2 pot. Houston clubs make a killing from poker being illegal here.

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$10 max rake in a 1/2 game?? Is that beatable at all? I know this isn't HS but that rake seems nuts. Assume $200 buyin for the 1/2 and $1000 for 5/10 with same structure, the 5/10 would have 10% $50 max rake. Pardon me?

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Not really except for people are terrible....it is where I started playing. They also pull $1 out for bad beat and $1 for high hand. Two tables running all night and they pay $100 for high hand.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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The rake hurts the person who plays (wins) most pots..The $$ that comes off tbl isnt an issue b/c there is a house full of suckers and the game never quits...So play fewer pots stay shorter periods of time and gl...

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Thanks for posting Russ. Good advice that. Hope you are well.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

in brazil the 5k buy in games are raked at 10% and with no maxx and are still beatable.that means if you play a 10k pot which would not be that unusual, the house rakes 1000 bucks.
im not disagreeing with you about it being beatable but man that is hard to imagine. its hard to imagine there even being any money left on the table at the end of the night.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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in brazil the 5k buy in games are raked at 10% and with no maxx and are still beatable.that means if you play a 10k pot which would not be that unusual, the house rakes 1000 bucks.


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First, that's gotta be the most insane statement I've ever heard that they'll rake 10%, no max.
Second, I stand corrected. You saying that a game like that is still beatable is the most insane thing I've ever heard.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

yeah this crap is the same reason I don't play in Atl anymore. My friend dealt a 10-10 nlhe (retarded house, don't ask) last week that was clearing a minimum of 2k/hr. We don't bother with beatable game arguments anymore.....

Re: Issues with the rake
 

Im done with this subject as I think it has served its purpose but I do have a response for those who say no matter what that they WOULDNT play in this game and believe its unbeatable.
I leave you with this choice.
A. Drive to your local airport and pay parking for 3 days($30) catch a flight to Vegas or A.C ($250) get a hotel room for 2 nights($200) and pay for your own food and drinks($100) Also, keep in mind that these are the bare minimums for arguments sake and it will cost u much more...Now comes the fun part...Go get on a list and find a game full of better than average players and maybe some world class players and maybe a couple bad ones.
There is no game selection because the lists are huge so u sit when your name is called. Now your in the game you want because they rake $5 a hand or $9 every half hour(time collection)? You have spent $600 and traveled X amt of time to get in a game b/c of the rake?
B. You take no $$ to the game that's 15 minutes from your house, eat a great meal, drink whatever u want, smoke if u like, and see a room full of suckers with unlimited credit who everytime they go broke simply raise there hand and say to the floorman "give me 2 thousand" ...but crap u cant play here b/c when u win a $3000 pot it should have been $3015 in there.... Im heading to the airport? I dont think so.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

you have obviously never played poker in las vegas

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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you have obviously never played poker in las vegas

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QFT

Re: Issues with the rake
 

google me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] good read though...NOT

Re: Issues with the rake
 

I shdnt have stooped to the level of posters on here..When I used to post in 01 it was raymer, rounder, mike B and many others who were not only solid players but solid posters...Now everyone is younger I guess and if there not making their point with a HU challenge they make a post with a smartass comment questioning your knoweledge..I shoulda let it go..For the record I have been to Vegas once or twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] U obv missed the point that saving x $ in rake doesnt equate to spending x $ to fly somewhere else..Nm, the original poster got the point and thats all that matters

Re: Issues with the rake
 

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I shdnt have stooped to the level of posters on here..When I used to post in 01 it was raymer, rounder, mike B and many others who were not only solid players but solid posters...Now everyone is younger I guess and if there not making their point with a HU challenge they make a post with a smartass comment questioning your knoweledge..I shoulda let it go..For the record I have been to Vegas once or twice [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] U obv missed the point that saving x $ in rake doesnt equate to spending x $ to fly somewhere else..Nm, the original poster got the point and thats all that matters

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I can vouch for this man.....Not only have i played with him in his game in Houston, but i've played with him in Vegas.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

By the way Russ, i don't think these guys were dissing on you by any means. I think they were alluding to the fact that there's plenty of donkeys to be found in Vegas.

Re: Issues with the rake
 

This must be Clint with the aggie logo...Yeah maybe i took it wrong and I know there are plenty of donkeys in Vegas but YOU KNOW and the poster KNOWS that there are no games in Vegas at these stakes like there are in Houston...There is something to be said for not having to have cash present to keep reordering chips...Obv the reason poker is played with chips and why so many get into huge debts with credit cards... how u doin? send me a PM lt8

other games
 

russ, i haven't been playing in town for the past 5 months. do u know of any 20/40+ games in town besides moose's? chigua's games done, correct? thanks. -james