One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

All unknown villains. Didn't feel like playing holdem and there were no good looking other games going so I figured I'd give learning Omaha 8 another try. Flop raise to get sb out yes? Turn call because of maybe best hand plus outs to scoop?

PokerStars 10/20 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

Ehh, I'm not crazy about any of this to be honest. And, depending on how the button plays, I'm not sure I even like the preflop raise. It's a little rough for me with few to no reads.

The flop is rough, imo, too. I know what you were trying to achieve, but that's not a real good flop for you in O8, not to mention that you had no way of knowing how the sb OR the bb was going to react, and now you have put in two bets while still being in the dark with your KK, plus you open up the betting again. You don't need to do this just because you open raised the hand. And, of course, once you get that turn card, you must call.I know some players who raise there, but without the read and not knowing how aggressive he is, I think I'd prefer to play it more cautiously. And I take the river, too.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

You're on the right track.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

Raising this hand preflop is terrible in this spot.

Flop raise is ugly, ugly ugly ugly.

Turn call is standard.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

So this is a muck preflop? Fold flop? Call flop and fold low turns?

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

In CO, FTA you are basically trying to steal the blinds and/or buy the BTN. If you get a flop as you've seen in this hand, you are basically drawing for half the pot (trying to get your money back). You have no way to know if your hand is good. Calling the flop bet is a mistake (hoping to catch).

Your opponent probably has a good low draw and maybe two pair (or set) &amp; knows he's a favorite in the hand.

On the turn things get worse, now you also face a possible flush draw. Your OESD is just not that valuable. You could make your hand and still loose. You have 2 outs to scoop the pot (non-diamond [9]s). If the [A] comes you'll split with the low or get scooped by diamonds.

You played a dog's hand &amp; your steal didn't work. It's time to learn what to do with trash pre-flop. You need a read on the players to make your steal effective. Arethey capable of folding pre-flop. If you've been playing loose and have a weak image, your raises have almost no chance of success. You're just spewing money.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

The raise is not a bad thing there. YOu should be raising and if not you are playing way to tight. Everything else is bad though. When that flop came out you were dead in the water and you just have to take your loss there. Play good and you will get payed off. Raises and re-raises are not a bad thing when you play properly.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn things get worse, now you also face a possible flush draw. Your OESD is just not that valuable. You could make your hand and still loose. You have 2 outs to scoop the pot (non-diamond [9]s). If the [A] comes you'll split with the low or get scooped by diamonds.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's way too pessimistic because thanks to the venturous flop raise it's heads up now and the size of the pot matters, too. The chance that villain is suited in diamonds is smaller than 25%. If he has any low it might well get counterfeited. For instance when he holds something like AQ34 an Ace falling on the river would completely destroy his hand. There are also chances to overtake queens up when one of the right cards (J and 2 or 4) pairs. And then there's still the possibility that KK is the best high hand at the turn. BB might well be betting a nut low draw plus wrap around straight draw. Who knows?

I like the way this hand was played very much though I would play it completely differently, if at all.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
Raising this hand preflop is terrible in this spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

it is definitely not terrible

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

There are so many better cards to play - I would seldom get involved in a pot with these cards. You have to mix things up - so fine as a one shot, but I have a feeling this is a normal strategy for some of the responders here.

Usually, this is a fold p/f - after that, your chances of losing more money got worse on the flop.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
There are so many better cards to play - I would seldom get involved in a pot with these cards. You have to mix things up - so fine as a one shot, but I have a feeling this is a normal strategy for some of the responders here.

Usually, this is a fold p/f - after that, your chances of losing more money got worse on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ] Run that hand against a couple of typical hands in an equity simulation. Run it heads up against A234, A3xx and some other hand that you'd consider raising there with. I think you'll be surprised. This hand actually does well short - the typical hands everyone loves A3xx etc. do well multi-way, but most of them not so well as this one short.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
Run that hand against a couple of typical hands in an equity simulation. Run it heads up against A234, A3xx and some other hand that you'd consider raising there with. I think you'll be surprised. This hand actually does well short - the typical hands everyone loves A3xx etc. do well multi-way, but most of them not so well as this one short.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure it does well hot/cold in simulation but the game isn't played in simulation mode. All simulation hands are overvalued because they include results where the person playing the hand wouldn't have continued. For example you raise and BB calls and the flop is A37r and he has 234J vs. your KKT9. A good part of your "suprisingly well" equity comes from situations like this where in the simulation world KK9T makes it to showdown (and wins) but in the real world this hand isn't making it to showdown in many spots where it would have won.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

Howmany - I don't like this hand for one-on-one play, but having position against a blind who can be bullied seems worthwhile. Is the blind poster someone who can be bullied?

Seven players in the game and three have folded when the action gets to you in the cut-off seat. Is it possible to steal the blinds or get one-on-one with a big blind who can be bullied? If so, I like the raise. If not, the pre-flop raise with this hand seems ill advised.

I think you're a very slight favorite over a random hand. However, I think you're about a two to three under-dog against a hand with an ace. Will one of the three players behind you have an ace after three players in front of you have already folded? Impossible to know for sure but I'm guessing it's probably more likely than not.

Still, if a steal will work....

But then it doesn't and you're probably up against at least one opponent with an ace.

And then you miss the flop. Can you play this like Texas hold 'em and bully these guys out of the pot? Maybe a steal will work now.....

But then it doesn't and you're heads-up against probably a better hand, and stuck in the pot.

So you're risking four big bets to win less than a half big bet if you split (the most likely scenario) and you simply lose when your opponent beats you for high, as seems likely after this flop.

Not having any shot at low is one major shortcoming of this hand when heads-up. The other major shortcoming is you don't have an ace.

If you hit a king on the flop you're looking fairly good. However, the ten-nine combo sucks, and the king-nine or king-ten combos are worse. (Yeah, I see the straight flush possibilities, and you'll actually make a straight flush about one time out of a thousand, something like that).

What it boils down to is you don't have a very good starting hand, and when you do make something good with it you should want as many customers as possible.

Buzz

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

I strongly feel the preflop raise is correct against reasonable opponents. The key here is the lateness of your position which should give you considerable steal equity and BTB equity.

On the flop against solid opponents you should just call the bet, basically because you are in fairly bad to bad shape and you can fold if a third low card comes if you keep the pot small.

The one time a raise is really nice is if the bettor has a high only hand that you beat and the third guy has a low that he will overcall with, but that's a rare parley.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
All unknown villains. Didn't feel like playing holdem and there were no good looking other games going so I figured I'd give learning Omaha 8 another try. Flop raise to get sb out yes? Turn call because of maybe best hand plus outs to scoop?

PokerStars 10/20 Omaha/8 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with this hand is that, let's be perfectly honest, how often do you succesfully steal the blinds in LO8? I rarely ever try and steal the blinds- and when it appears that I am, i'm just raising for value, b/c I assume one or both of the blinds is going to be calling a huge % of the time, which, makes stealing nearly impossible. This is another reason why it's not incorrect to open limp the CO in LO8.

The problem with this hand is that it sucks. You flopped very mediocre, and there are 24 cards that effectively cut your pot odds in half on the turn. Granted you caught a decent turn card, but your hand is still one pair, and you're going to be putting in 2 BB's after calling this flop very often and usually end up either splitting or being scooped, and with a flop like this your scoop potential is nearly none almost always.

I'm mucking this hand preflop unless there's at least two limpers in front of me, in which case i'll limp along. Big pairs by themselves do not have a lot of value in LO8.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly feel the preflop raise is correct against reasonable opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]Micturation Man - Interesting. Why do you feel that way?

I think it would be correct to raise before the flop with this hand (or any hand) if doing so would steal the pot. I also think it would be correct to raise before the flop with this particular hand when doing so would get me one-on-one with a too-tight big blind who would give up (check/fold) on the second betting round whenever the flop didn't hit him exactly squarely.

But I agree with Tex that stealing is unlikely and I also think it unlikely to get one-on-one with a big blind who could then be bullied after a non-perfect flop.

The only reason I can think of that makes sense for raising with this hand is that raising will make it more difficult for your intelligent opponents to put you on cards when you raise at some later time with a hand that merits a raise. (Your stupid opponents are not able to put you on cards anyhow and are thus oblivious to the raise). You waste a bet with the raise here, but may collect later from someone who is befuddled by your later raise - but the "advertising" you get is probably not worth it, because you'll have to play the hand all the way to the showdown to be able to show your opponents what crap you're raising with.

In my humble opinion this hand is simply not a very good starting hand. Tex phrased it more elequently:[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this hand is that it sucks.

[/ QUOTE ]
Buzz

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure it does well hot/cold in simulation but the game isn't played in simulation mode. All simulation hands are overvalued because they include results where the person playing the hand wouldn't have continued. For example you raise and BB calls and the flop is A37r and he has 234J vs. your KKT9. A good part of your "suprisingly well" equity comes from situations like this where in the simulation world KK9T makes it to showdown (and wins) but in the real world this hand isn't making it to showdown in many spots where it would have won.

[/ QUOTE ] Agreed - however, this hand + position has good value against players who are prone to folding without a favorable flop fit. (in fact, since hands run so close in value, just about any hand plays well against this sort of op) I guess what I'm suggesting is that against all but the pure calling stations just about any reasonable hand plus position should be considered - ruling out a hand in the right situation, because it's not an A2 or A3 hand isn't always the strongest play.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

folding this preflop in the CO is a mistake

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

This is a very interesting discussion in that opinions are so far apart on it.

I think that it is more or les 'junk' that I would have no problem throwing away. If your goal is to try to find a way to win every pot, then of course it can be played - but why?

Part of my preference not to play it stems from the fact that I play on average 4 tables at a time so most of the time the hand would require too much direct concentration.

The thing is though, the hand is "trouble" from start to finish, unless you manage to flop a straight flush or quads, in which case you are unlikely to win a big pot.

In the majority of other situations you are either going to lose money, or scramble to get half of the pot.

Why bother with that?

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

why do people raise in the CO with 97s? J9s? etc

you have position and a decent hand.

i understand that in o8 there are a lot of flops where you are seemingly drawing only to a chop.

just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked, with position, I'm not folding here and I think its a SMALL leak to do so.

stop being nits! gambol.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

When you raise w/ this hand preflop, you need to hit a board that fits in very well w/ your hand. Say, generally paint, maybe a spade or two. Paired board isn't horrible either. This flop is maybe one of the worst case scenarios. You have to dodge low and have one pair hold up for potentially half. The safe cards that can come for you that MIGHT make it possible to card are slim. while the cards that scare the [censored] out of you are many, low cards, straightening low cards, a paired low card. Calling on the flop is only reserved for when you have a realllllllllllllllllllly good read on this guy, and then you have to be Neo and dodge bullets for half.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

Buzz -

I think your combination of steal equity, plus the secondary possiblity of getting heads-up with position, makes the hand playable from the cut-off.

I specificed reasonable opponents though. I guess if they are too laggy you would have to fold, or if they were loose-passive you might open-limp (not that I like open-limping).

I agree that it's not a very good starting hand, obviously, but that's not the point. When are in the cutoff you no longer need a very good hand, just a decentish hand. IMO it's good enough.

As a thought experiment let's say everyone folded to us in on the button rather than in the cut-off. Do you still like a fold?

I would lay very generous odds that we are +EV opening on the button with this hand. Just curious if you agree with that or if you still don't like the hand even then.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
why do people raise in the CO with 97s? J9s? etc

[/ QUOTE ]Hoppscot - Those are two card Texas hold 'em hands. Texas hold 'em is a game such that you can gamble on your opponent's lack of fit with the board.

But this is Omaha-8 and one of your opponents is much more likely to actually have a fit with the flop.
[ QUOTE ]
you have position...

[/ QUOTE ]Position matters in limit Omaha-8, but not nearly as much as in pot-limit Omaha-8, and not as much as in no-limit Texas hold 'em.

[ QUOTE ]
...and a decent hand.

[/ QUOTE ]KKT9s- is not what I would call a "decent hand." (By s-, I mean the ten suited to the nine. I use s without the minus sign for suited to the highest card in the hand). KKT9s- is what I would call a sub-marginal hand. By "sub-marginal" I mean a tad below marginal. Sometimes I'll play sub-marginal hands, but usually for something more than their own intrinsic value.

[ QUOTE ]
i understand that in o8 there are a lot of flops where you are seemingly drawing only to a chop.

[/ QUOTE ]This is one of them.

[ QUOTE ]
just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked,....

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not sure what you mean by "equity" as you are using the word here. I don't think a bare ace-deuce is a great Omaha-8 hand, although I'll generally see the flop with it. And I'm probably often going to see the flop, especially from late position along with a lot of limpers, with KKT9s- too, although I surely can see the case for folding it.

But you're comparing four cards (KKT9) to two cards (A2XX). Hardly seems quite a fair comparison. How's about you make it A2T9 and KKT9. Now which of those two hands do you honestly prefer? While A2T9 is not a great hand by any means, it's a head above KKT9 (not quite head and shoulders above).[ QUOTE ]
...with position, I'm not folding here and I think its a SMALL leak to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]How about QQT9? Want to play that one too? How about JJT9? 88T9? 77T9? 66T9? (all with a suited T9) Where do you draw your line?
I don't think any of those hands are very playable. But in a game where everyone is often seeing the flop I might play any of them to alleviate boredom and to appear looser - but certainly not for two bets.
[ QUOTE ]
stop being nits! gambol.

[/ QUOTE ] It's not exactly a matter of being a nit. It's a matter of playing in such a way as to have the odds on your side.

In my considered opinion, the hand needs volume to be playable. If almost everyone ahead of me had limped, I would limp too. If so, I'd be mainly playing the hand for the pair of kings within it. And then on the one time out of eight when the flop had a king, I'd have odds to continue. I'd still need the board to pair, and that's what I'd be drawing for (the board to pair). The suited ten-nine adds value too, but in Omaha-8 suited ten-nine is not great, even when the flop is 8-7-6 (unless you flop a straight flush, but that's too rare to merit serious consideration). In a full loose game, your ten high straight will probably not be the nuts for high on the river (but you'll be stuck in the pot even though you're only playing for the high half of the pot).

I think where you're going wrong is over-valuing KKT9s- as a starting hand. Even when you catch a king on the flop, you're still drawing after the flop, needing the board to pair. And then you're probably paying off on the river even when the board doesn't pair (because the pot may be huge and your opponents will tend to bluff into huge pots).

Gamble? That's what we do. However, we want an edge because the pain of losing is greater than the joy of winning and we thus need to win more often than we lose to have the joy exceed the pain.

Nits? Is playing properly with the odds on your side being a nit?

Buzz

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
why do people raise in the CO with 97s? J9s? etc

you have position and a decent hand.

i understand that in o8 there are a lot of flops where you are seemingly drawing only to a chop.

just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked, with position, I'm not folding here and I think its a SMALL leak to do so.

stop being nits! gambol.

[/ QUOTE ]


I hadn't noticed this post until buzz responded but I think it is very well put.

The playability of a hand is a function of it's strength AND position.

When you get as late as the cut-off, the bottom end of your opening distribution should consist of decently coordinated high hands. Badly coordinated high hands are still unplayable, and well-coordinated high hands are not at the bottom.

The analogy with 97s is perfect imo. Is it a good hand? Not really. Is it good enough? I think so.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
just look at the equity between KKT9 and A2 XX, you might be shocked,....

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure what you mean by "equity" as you are using the word here. I don't think a bare ace-deuce is a great Omaha-8 hand, although I'll generally see the flop with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

you might not think a bare ace-deuce is a great O8 hand, but the majority of people do, even up to 25-50 and 30-60. My overall point is that if you actually look at preflop equity in omaha 8, a lot of hands are much closer then you would originally think, so shorthanded in position I am going to play much more aggressively and take the edge i get in position over the slight equity i may give up.

this is especially the case in shorthanded, higher stakes, aggro games. Maybe im just more used to 25-50 where it is usually 3 or 4 handed and aggression is king.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you still like a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]Micturation Man - I'm not exactly in the fold camp. I'm more in the grimace and call camp. Well.... I don't know.... maybe I would fold with no limpers ahead of me.

But on the button? Well.... I don't know.... I like the position better and from on the button after all folds I'd be seriously considering the possibility of stealing the blinds. I guess if I thought I could get away with stealing more often than not, I might come in with a raise from on the button.

[ QUOTE ]
I would lay very generous odds that we are +EV opening on the button with this hand. Just curious if you agree with that or if you still don't like the hand even then.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm guessing "opening on the button" means coming in with a raise on the button.

I don't play this game like I play Texas hold 'em. Holding either KK or T9s in a Texas hold 'em game, after all folds to me on the button I would open, meaning I would come in with a raise.

I don't play ring games like I play tournaments. Holding KKT9s- at the final table in a tournament, after folds to me, if I played this hand, it would be with a raise and against blind posters I expected would fold.

I would not raise with this hand in a ring game unless I was fairly certain I could steal the blinds and be unchallenged. And stealing the blinds in a typical ring game is just not very realistic. It does sometimes happen, but not much and I think with this hand it's a bad gamble, a long shot.

Buzz

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

Fold preflop as default play.

you could look at it a couple ways:
1) As a rough guideline, Bill Boston's book KKT9 as top 55% of hands for tightish fullring game, and stealing w that range is too loose for most games

2) you could look at its equity. So, vs. random hand hot/cold you're even money vs. a top 25% hand and around a 42-57% (or 1.35 to 1) dog. Comparing this to limit holdem, for example, makes your hand roughly equivalent to say T6s, Q5o, or 22.

3) you might argue that with that equity, you are getting odds and have positon so you can play it. But that means that the blinds are also getting odds and so are much less likely to fold. sort of equivalent to LHE when blinds defend super loose

4) But those equities only show hot/cold. When actually playing, your hand is sorta like 22 from LHE: it is not in bad shape equity wise to many hands, can hit big, will often be ahead on the flop but opponets will always have outs, but most of the time won't know where it stands. as a result you are at a playing disadvantage. Here for example, you flopped the most likely flop you would expect: 2 low cards, no set and you have a tough time on the flop.

5) all that said, there are times you steal here: when blinds don't defend correctly, play bad postflop, when fits into overall metagame strategy, etc.

-g

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
can hit big, will often be ahead on the flop but opponets will always have outs, but most of the time won't know where it stands. as a result you are at a playing disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really shouldnt be playing omaha 8 or better if that is seriously how you feel about the game, your opponents will almost always have outs, and that definitely does not mean you are playing at a disadvantage, sorry thats just wrong

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
can hit big, will often be ahead on the flop but opponets will always have outs, but most of the time won't know where it stands. as a result you are at a playing disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

you really shouldnt be playing omaha 8 or better if that is seriously how you feel about the game, your opponents will almost always have outs, and that definitely does not mean you are playing at a disadvantage, sorry thats just wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't decide whether you are deliberately obtuse, have poor reading comprehension, or are a troll. What about being put to tough decisions not knowing where your hand stands is unclear to you? This is basic poker 101: you are way behind, or you are ahead with your opponents having a bunch of outs

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
you might not think a bare ace-deuce is a great O8 hand, but the majority of people do, even up to 25-50 and 30-60.

[/ QUOTE ]Hoppscot - I believe a correct understanding of the relative strength of starting hands is an advantage in this game. There are a lot of general misconceptions probably held by a majority of those who play some Omaha-8. I'm not sure that what a majority thinks about a bare ace-deuce is necessarily the truth.
[ QUOTE ]
My overall point is that if you actually look at preflop equity in omaha 8, a lot of hands are much closer then you would originally think,....

[/ QUOTE ] I don't know what you mean by "you." (Do you mean me specifically or do you mean people in general?) But no matter.

We're not comparing KKT9s- to any specific hand. I'd rate it as a not particularly strong hand. I'd also rate A2T9s- as a not particularly strong hand, but at least one that was better than average.

I like both of those hands better in a crowd than one-on-one after a crowd has been dealt hands, all but one of which have been folded.

A2T9 only has a probability of making the nut low 424512/1712304 = 24.79%.

That's only one time out of four, and then there's the whole fractionating thing to consider (getting quartered, sixthed, or eighthed).

The probability of A2T9 making a non-nut low (live ace or live deuce) is another 11.73%.

In a full, tight game (which this one seems to me to be), since everyone is going to play hands with ace-deuce, A2T9 is very likely to be get fractionated for low, and it's not strong for high.

But A2T9, although not a great hand (in my humble opinion, regardless of what the "majority" thinks) is at least a better starting hand than KKT9. In a heads-up contest between A2T9 and KKT9, I don't know and I don't care which is the better hand. (My guess is they're very close). Heads-up against an unknown hand, I would prefer A78J-rainbow to KKT9 with a suited ten-nine. (I would not normally seriously consider playing A78J-rainbow in a full game).
[ QUOTE ]
so shorthanded in position I am going to play much more aggressively and take the edge i get in position over the slight equity i may give up.

[/ QUOTE ]That makes good sense to me. But this is not a short-handed game. Instead this is a rather tight game (by my standards) where Hero is in the cut-off seat after three folds. What that means to me is three garbage hands may have folded, possibly leaving the cream of the crop yet to act behind me.

Playing this KKT9s- hand under those conditions is very awkward.
[ QUOTE ]
this is especially the case in shorthanded, higher stakes, aggro games. Maybe im just more used to 25-50 where it is usually 3 or 4 handed and aggression is king.

[/ QUOTE ]Three or four handed would be quite a different game from this seven handed game. A game where three people have folded is simply not the same as a game where only four people were originally dealt cards.

I don't know as "aggression is king" in my limit Omaha-8 games, but aggressive play, when properly and deftly applied, is rewarded, in my humble opinion. You don't necessarily have to come in with a raise to play this game aggressively.

I suppose it's somewhat a matter of playing style.

Buzz

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

More questions than answers...

How much does the preflop and flop fold equity play here? If the BB is a reasonably tight player and can fold preflop near 50% of the time and will fold on the flop to a c-bet when he misses, I think a raise from late position with this kind of hand is good. Is open limping from late position ever "correct" in a LO8 game?

The hand develops on the turn in a way that they so often do in O8. OP has acquired a very good draw and the low hasn't come yet. But before OP can decide what to do, the BB leads out. So now is this a tricky move or does he have a real hand? In O8, I suspect its a "real hand" but that could be a monster draw (which we lead at this point) or a made hand (2 pair or set). Once I get to this position, I don't think I can fold. If you are behind, you have between 5 and 16 outs to scoop the pot...

That is my ruminating... I think I either raise or fold preflop depending on the blinds -- if I raise, I play it exactly the same as OP.

Tough spot --

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
How much does the preflop and flop fold equity play here?

[/ QUOTE ]TMTTR - I think I understand what you mean by preflop equity, but what is "flop fold equity"?

At any rate, after the flop it's a new ball game. Then after the turn it may be another new ball game.

[ QUOTE ]
Is open limping from late position ever "correct" in a LO8 game?

[/ QUOTE ]Hmm. Why would it be incorrect?

Omaha-8 is a drawing game. If you figure you'll lose if you miss your draw and win if you make your draw, then you want more opponents calling your raise than the odds are against making your draw. Especially when you take into consideration the chance of having to split the pot with low, you often will not have enough opponents to have favorable odds to initiate fresh money into the pot, but considering the amount that will be in the pot at the showdown, you often will have favorable odds to call a bet.

Thus it is often correct to call a bet (because you consider the total amount that will be in the pot at the showdown when calculating your odds) while at the same time it will be incorrect to raise (because you compare the number of opponents contributing to your odds of making your draw).

I'm not sure if you grasp those principles - but that's the gist of it.

Is it ever correct to call in late position? ...Hello... <font color="red">Of course it is!</font> It's often correct when you're drawing - and you usually are (should be) drawing.

Seems to me we've been over this again and again. Am I missing something?

[ QUOTE ]
OP has acquired a very good draw and the low hasn't come yet.

[/ QUOTE ]Well... he has 8 outs for the high nuts (the non diamond aces, nines and eights). But six of the outs (aces and eights) also enable low.
Hard to know about the diamond ace, nine, and eight. (Hero makes a straight but does Villain make a flush)? Also hard to know about all the remaining cards. Does that constitute a "very good draw"??

[ QUOTE ]
But before OP can decide what to do, the BB leads out. So now is this a tricky move or does he have a real hand?


[/ QUOTE ]Exactly. Hero can't tell where the Hell he is in the hand!

[ QUOTE ]
In O8, I suspect its a "real hand" but that could be a monster draw (which we lead at this point) or a made hand (2 pair or set). Once I get to this position, I don't think I can fold. If you are behind, you have between 5 and 16 outs to scoop the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]Rather vague, isn't it.

[ QUOTE ]
Tough spot --

[/ QUOTE ]Yep.

With only one opponent, Hero doesn't have odds to draw, but the draw does add to Hero's chances. And that is how it happens when you don't have a very good fit with the flop but continue anyhow. Many or most possible turn cards increase your chances somewhat. In this case, after this flop, more than half of the unseen cards would give Hero some sort of increased chance to win - albeit most of them not as good as the jacks.

And Hero can't tell where he's at, can't tell if the pressure is real or a bullying tactic.

Buzz

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think I understand what you mean by preflop equity, but what is "flop fold equity"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both preflop and on the flop, I am talking about the equity added by the probability that your opponent(s) will fold. A raise preflop from late position might win you the blinds -- then you don't have to worry about whether you make your draw or get outdrawn -- you take the small pot right there. Similarly, on the flop -- regardless of whether you are ahead or behind, there is some chance that the blind will fold if you bet (i.e., continuing the steal attempt) -- there is equity in that (although it might be overwhelmed by the negative equity from your opponent raising or calling with a better hand). I might have my terminology screwed up but that is the concept I am talking about.

[ QUOTE ]
Thus it is often correct to call a bet (because you consider the total amount that will be in the pot at the showdown when calculating your odds) while at the same time it will be incorrect to raise (because you compare the number of opponents contributing to your odds of making your draw).

I'm not sure if you grasp those principles - but that's the gist of it.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think I grasp the principle that you can call a bet in many circumstances where you couldn't raise. My question was limited to the circumstance: that it is (1) preflop, (2)you are in late position (the button or possibly CO), and (3) no one has entered the pot yet. The concept -- taken from the voluminous material on HE -- is that if you are going to play this hand at all, it is better to take control now and raise. You either have a hand that has value or you are representing that you have a hand that has value. Why let the blinds in for free (or cheap) with random hands? Even a reraise tells me more than a raise after my limp.

I may not be stating myself clearly as I am posting from work -- I will rethink later.

Re: One day I will learn how to play 10/20 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am talking about the equity added by the probability that your opponent(s) will fold ..... I might have my terminology screwed up but that is the concept I am talking about.

[/ QUOTE ]TMTTR - I get it. Thanks.

I don't know the answer to your question, but I understand what you mean. (I think I do).

[ QUOTE ]
I think I grasp the principle that you can call a bet in many circumstances where you couldn't raise.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes!

[ QUOTE ]
..... The concept -- taken from the voluminous material on HE -- is that if you are going to play this hand at all, it is better to take control now and raise.

[/ QUOTE ]Although there's still something to that in Omaha-8, the principle isn't as applicable as it is in Texas hold 'em. The difference is there are too many ways an opponent can have a favorable fit with the flop in Omaha-8 compared to Texas hold 'em.

I actually have done all right playing Texas hold 'em. I mean, I don't think of myself as an inept Texas hold 'em player - a loser. I simply enjoy playing Omaha-8 more than Texas hold 'em. I can't explain exactly why. It's just more fun - somehow less stressful. At any rate, not that it matters but rightly or wrongly, I play Texas hold 'em quite differently from the way I play Omaha-8. I think general poker principles apply to both games, but the emphasis is different (if that makes any sense).

[ QUOTE ]
You either have a hand that has value or you are representing that you have a hand that has value.

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. That's the same in any poker game. However, there is a difference, going from one game to another, in the probability your hand or an opponent's hand has value.

[ QUOTE ]
Why let the blinds in for free (or cheap) with random hands?

[/ QUOTE ]Because then they may pay you off when you make a winning hand. And when you don't make a winning hand, you can get out more cheaply.

It's a matter of how well your hand fits with the flop on the river - not how good your starting hand is. (Of course better starting hands do have a better chance of ending up as winners on the river).

[ QUOTE ]
Even a reraise tells me more than a raise after my limp.

[/ QUOTE ]Maybe. As I see it the players who tend to raise before the flop do it (raise) often enough so that it's very difficult to put them on cards. Not everybody, of course - some give away free information with their raises.

One thing about raising with that KKT9s- piece of crap hand is unless you usually or always raise with high-cards-only hands, you don't give away much information. But that's like raising with 92o in Texas hold 'em. You don't give away information, but unless you intimidate your opponents, or set them up to call your later raise with a solid hand, you're wasting a bet.

There is something to setting up your opponents. You don't play hands in isolation. What you do on one hand affects the way your play is perceived on another. But that's not what we're talking about here.

Enough.

Buzz