too weird or too good?
 

20-40 so so game. guy i dont know who seems mediocre but he's only been there five minutes, raises utg. guy who is too loose and not good, but kind of aggressive at times, calls. i decide to call w/ QhTh on the button because it's the button and ive been playing no hands. the bb who is bad calls.

the flop is QJJ with one heart. utg bets, next guy calls, and i fold.

??????

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
20-40 so so game. guy i dont know who seems mediocre but he's only been there five minutes, raises utg. guy who is too loose and not good, but kind of aggressive at times, calls. i decide to call w/ QhTh on the button because it's the button and ive been playing no hands. the bb who is bad calls.

the flop is QJJ with one heart. utg bets, next guy calls, and i fold.

??????

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont get it. Flop fold look really bad.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

I am going to be the first on into this thread and predict that it will have a whole bunch of responses followed by you not being able to explain why what you did was right and everyone else was wrong.

Seriously though, I just can't fold here. I don't take this past the first or second level and just think I have top piar against some guy who just con-bet the flop and some other dude who just called. If you want to play cautiously then just call but don't fold yet.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

Wow. Why play QTs then?

Re: too weird or too good?
 

the guy in the middle has a jack just about every time, so i guess it's fine.

and fold preflop, but you knew that.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
the guy in the middle has a jack just about every time,

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think he does. On a JJ5 board, yeah. But on a QJJ board, he can have plenty of straight draws that smack a cold-caller in the face: T9s, AT, KT, 98s, etc. I would call now because if he does have a J he'll wake up on the turn. If the PFR bets again, he likely has us beat.

But right now, we're closing the action and we have a decent hand. We have position, so let's use it. Call and see what happens on the turn.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

In my opinion calling is much better than raising or folding.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

Pbob im with joker on that, middle guy can have tons of hands here, except I dont think even on JJ5 u could conclude he has to have a J given his player description every PP and probably most A his or UI high cards he ll peel. UTG could easily be betting any hand he raised here as well into 3 but thats more suspect, but again we dont have a read so I dont think we can fold.

Mike would u fold KQ here? AQ? what was ur thinking, reverse implied odds or something, or u just didnt know what u would do on future streets and didnt want to get involved (thats my best guess)? u dont have a read thta says either players actions so far necessarily mean much of anything.

I think u should call a flop bet here and then u can consider ditching the turn if utg bets into 3 players on the turn or if it gets raised infront of u. I think in a vacuum it has to be a profitable call but i guess the contention would be the cost of mistakes on future streets. Does that out weigh the value of giving up ur equity in this pot for one sb? i doubt it but i duno.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

to answer now would be bad as i got dirnk. i will anser in the morning.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

"the guy in the middle has a jack just about every time"

are you being serious or joking around?

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"the guy in the middle has a jack just about every time"

are you being serious or joking around?

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was a joke.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

i can never tell with bob, he and i just dont match up in our thinking online.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"the guy in the middle has a jack just about every time"

are you being serious or joking around?

[/ QUOTE ]

it's the only reason i can think of for folding.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

thoguht guy might have a J or utg might have an overpair or might lose with bad turn card = fold

Re: too weird or too good?
 

Er? I don't get it. You have your backdoor flush, backdoor straight and top pair closing the action getting 9:1... heck, if a heart comes on the turn and it goes bet, call, you might even be able to raise this and get UTG to fold a better hand!

Re: too weird or too good?
 

"heck, if a heart comes on the turn and it goes bet, call, you might even be able to raise this and get UTG to fold a better hand!"'

be srious. im drink and even i dfont find that fdunny

Re: too weird or too good?
 

fold this preflop and be done with it please.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
guy i dont know who seems mediocre but he's only been there five minutes, raises utg. guy who is too loose and not good, but kind of aggressive at times, calls

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on this I don't think you can fold yet. One guy is an unknown who you think you can call an UTG raise with QTs in a 3-way pot and the other is a clown.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

You got Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and top pair and there's $190 in the pot and you close the action and get to see what they both do on the turn. I wouldn't love my hand but I'd like it enough to throw in one small bet.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
thoguht guy might have a J or utg might have an overpair or might lose with bad turn card = fold

[/ QUOTE ]

I mean this sincerely, interesting and food for thought. Thanks for starting this thread too.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

when it got to me on the flop i felt like gee havent i done this before, been in this spot and seen it turn out bad too often. i know im "supposed" to call once i see the flop, but when it was my turn to do so i got this feeling and didnt. and it felt so right.

but preflop i didnt have that feeling. it felt like okay these guys are tarded and im playing good and i can play this profitably here. and i think part of that was making this unorthodox flop fold.

i know sometimes these guys will show up with AK and T9 and i mucked the winner and so on, but on the flop i just knew that wasnt happening often enough for my call to be profitable even getting 9 to 1. it seemed like bad player would call all day with a J just looking like he did and raise all fake strong all day with all his draws. it also seemed like utg might be weak enough to just check there with AK and 99 and other hands at least sometimes, maybe more often. but mostly it seemed like that initial feeling, ive been here before and ive called or raise and it just doesnt work out well. so i folded.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

Sometimes the opposite of folding isn't really calling, it's more like "living". It's a neat NL concept that has a place in limit, where you make a call to give yourself a chance to win later, whether that comes from having/making the best hand or a well-timed bluff. In limit of course the bluffing aspect is not there so much, but you should give yourself a chance to watch them react to a turn card.

Sometimes you have such a mental firepower advantage that you feel compelled to use it. But I've played hands like this against inexperienced opponents in home game settings, and afterwards I say "I folded a Q" and they are like LOL why you had top pair???, as they show down some random hand and a missed draw.

{note, I explained this in a level of detail that is overkill for you, but perhaps others get something from it too}

PS I am the nitmeister and I call preflop live in that spot all day. I'm surprised there is debate on this in a live setting.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

This post reminds me of older posts by Tommy Angelos where he is getting 35:1 but folds and everyone is saying omg and he writes a poem and everyone says ah yes all is well. What happened to that guy?

Re: too weird or too good?
 

Straight up overthinking here. That the flop is draw heavy is a reason to call just as it's a reason to fold. You can often fold the turn here but never the flop- you frequently pick up enough outs on the turn to continue. Plus, oh yeah, you actually do have the best hand sometimes and it's not as if the pot is miniscule.

I don't know what kind of trouble you're worried about getting into, your hand probably shows a profit if you just fold every time one of your opponents bets the turn.

-Michael

Re: too weird or too good?
 

I agree. Especially if you are going to call 2 cold pre-flop.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Straight up overthinking here. That the flop is draw heavy is a reason to call just as it's a reason to fold. You can often fold the turn here but never the flop- you frequently pick up enough outs on the turn to continue. Plus, oh yeah, you actually do have the best hand sometimes and it's not as if the pot is miniscule.

I don't know what kind of trouble you're worried about getting into, your hand probably shows a profit if you just fold every time one of your opponents bets the turn.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

This is spot on and I want to add just a little addition. Because many players believe that mike will play his hand the way they would play theirs, if he just calls this flop in position all kinds of warning bells start going off in their heads. (even though in reality it would be pretty rare for mike not to raise this flop with a jack) This will make the turn pretty easy to play actually and getting a free/cheap card won't be uncommon at all since even an overpair my have trouble betting into 2 players on the turn.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

i guess i wasnt being clear. i was pretty sure i was beat in one or probably two spots. so i decided to fold a street early. it wasnt overthinking, it was underthinking.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I am going to be the first on into this thread and predict that it will have a whole bunch of responses followed by you not being able to explain why what you did was right and everyone else was wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Looks like you nailed it.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

i never said everyone else was wrong. i just wanted to see if anyone could say anything i didnt already know or convince me i was mistaken or not seeing things clearly.

sometimes, in live poker, a great read overrides everything else.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

So basically you're saying "I played live and had a great read that I can't and didn't express in this post and made a terrific play based on that read which none of you had nor were there to make. So how did I do?"

Re: too weird or too good?
 

no i was feeling unsure about it, like maybe it was too ambitious and i wanted to see if anyone on here would say something that would make me think about it differently. it wasnt like a solid obvious read like i saw the guys hand shaking or he looked away when the flop came or a tell or something. im not looking for a pat on the back or something, i already know im good at stuff like this. i was just surprised with how easily i was able to release the hand. part of me was sort of hoping someone good would come on and say big deal i do stuff like this too sometimes.

look im the first person to say that ive sometimes been too confident in my person reading skills and ive folded best hands in some big pots before. im searching for the perfect balance. sorry if this thread is a little self indulgent, it's more intended for me to think through these sorts of plays than to teach anyone anything. ryno's post was the best so far imo.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ryno's post was the best so far imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is often the case. Ryno, please post more even though you don't play too much limit these days.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

"gee havent i done this before, been in this spot and seen it turn out bad too often."

Well, it's good to learn from our mistakes, but it needs to be the correct lesson. We still need to make the correct play even if it didn't turn out good the last few times.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

"I want to add just a little addition."

You're making a valuable point, but this phrase made me chuckle.

Regards,
Andy

Re: too weird or too good?
 

I agree with you about Ryno's post.

And, of course, you know who it sounds like.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

"part of me was sort of hoping someone good would come on and say big deal i do stuff like this too sometimes."

::: raising hand :::

"i was just surprised with how easily i was able to release the hand."

That’s cool. When that happens to me, usually somebody flopped quads.

But mike, seriously, sort of, I'm a big fan of making bad folds for no reason, but even I can't back you on this one. The reason I think it's a bad fold is kind of boring. You could catch a queen. And if they have the hands that you felt them have, you’ll get paid something, even with a QQJJ board, so the math probably only slightly favors a fold, even assuming you have the worst hand.

So, which one of them had quads? :-)

Tommy

Re: too weird or too good?
 

but if utg has AQ (or other guy somehow has one) i chop with a Q meaning there's only 1 left for half the pot...so the math doesnt like the call for that either. no, if i call there has to be a significant chance my hand is good or that a flush or straight is good should i back into one. the problem with those backdoor draws is they are messy outs that might boat someone up or something. bottom line is my hand just isnt good often enough from my experience in these spots against these sorts of players in this card room at this limit.

so why not fold preflop? ive certainly been folding up a storm lately. i think it's very close. part of being able to play a hand like this profitably is getting away from trap spots like this. which i guess i did.

utg had AA and other guy had a J.

thought you might chime in on this one tommy. if you had posted this same hand a couple years ago i wouldve screamed and yelled about how wrong it is. funny how things change.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I want to add just a little addition."

You're making a valuable point, but this phrase made me chuckle.



[/ QUOTE ]

Haha. This is pretty interesting actually since I played at oceans until 3am and got up to take my kids to school and then posted this on 3 hrs of sleep. If I was capable of such retarted prose, one could only imagine what kind of errors I could be capable of making at the poker table when this tired. Joe, no need to lecture if you read this. I know how you feel.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

if their hand ranges are so narrow on this flop that you must fold then you should never ever call pf. you simply cant have it both ways.

Re: too weird or too good?
 

[ QUOTE ]
if their hand ranges are so narrow on this flop that you must fold then you should never ever call pf. you simply cant have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tried to take this line with him on the phone earlier but didn't get too far and just gave up. See my first post in this thread.