$200r, flop hits me hard
 

converter is messed up, sorry. I've been playing normal, you all know the opponents. Best line here?

Seat 1: muchakja (5195 in chips)
Seat 2: iMsoLucky0 (5355 in chips)
Seat 4: Bushman (8105 in chips)
Seat 5: Rabscuttle (11438 in chips)
Seat 6: ComeOnPhish (9225 in chips)
Seat 7: dud711 (16480 in chips)
Seat 8: bigdogpckt5s (26738 in chips)
Seat 9: callduhbluff (9100 in chips)
Rabscuttle: posts small blind 75
ComeOnPhish: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to callduhbluff [8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
dud711: folds
bigdogpckt5s: folds
callduhbluff: raises 300 to 450
muchakja: folds
iMsoLucky0: folds
Bushman: calls 450
Rabscuttle: calls 375
ComeOnPhish: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
Rabscuttle: checks
ComeOnPhish: checks
callduhbluff:...

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

Fold preflop, bet like 1350.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

1300, 3bet shove if raised

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

bet/3bet AI. What else could you do?

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

Is a check raise stupid here?

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

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Is a check raise stupid here?

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Yeah because stack sizes are bad for it. b/3b AI let's us put in the last bet as well as taking a very strong line, maximizing FE. Clearly some of theese opponents are capable of folding top pair here (like ATs, TJ) to a 3bet AI.

Also, we'd like to get some money in on the flop here, and we really hate seeing a whiffed turn where we have also lost control of the pot.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

Bet and 3-bet all in > check raise IMO.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

You should be leading hard at this flop with your big draws, your sets, and your overpairs.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

After I bet 1300 my stack is about 7k. How the f do I get to put a last bet in with any sort of FE

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

[ QUOTE ]
After I bet 1300 my stack is about 7k. How the f do I get to put a last bet in with any sort of FE

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This is what I was thinking regarding why a check raise might be good.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

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After I bet 1300 my stack is about 7k. How the f do I get to put a last bet in with any sort of FE

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WTF is with people thinking fold equity is important. You are a favorite over JJ, a flip with T9, QJ, and not that big of a dog against bigger flush draws.

Your hand crushes any range.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

[ QUOTE ]
After I bet 1300 my stack is about 7k. How the f do I get to put a last bet in with any sort of FE

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Two people have checked already, the danger of the flop checking through is too great. If you are consistently leading flops like this with the other hands I mentioned, it's going to be a losing proposition for anyone to raise you anyway, and your first bet should have substantial fold equity.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

obviously, but everyone is saying b/3bet all in to be able to put in the last bet. Might as well just say bet so you can get raised all in and happily call with your monster draw because putting in the last bet means nothing here

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

What's the right bet size to induce that all-in reraise from the guy behind you?

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

okay easy hand, the results just pissed me off because in this specific spot a c/r AI would've been better but 95% of the time leading out is better.

callduhbluff: bets 1250
Bushman: raises 6405 to 7655 and is all-in
Rabscuttle: folds
ComeOnPhish: folds
callduhbluff: calls 6405
Bushman: shows [Jc Qc]

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

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obviously, but everyone is saying b/3bet all in to be able to put in the last bet. Might as well just say bet so you can get raised all in and happily call with your monster draw because putting in the last bet means nothing here

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well, it does set up pot for a shove if they c/c flop. but yeah, dude youre overthinking this. bet this flop because you have the best hand.

honestly, we are almost never seeing a c/r here because both villains are good and nothing legit c/r's this flop with these stacks.

so the 1300 is a good number in case we get allin on flop, but it's more just a question of vbetting this flop and setting up for a turn shove when we may have lost a ton of our equity

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

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After I bet 1300 my stack is about 7k. How the f do I get to put a last bet in with any sort of FE

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WTF is with people thinking fold equity is important. You are a favorite over JJ, a flip with T9, QJ, and not that big of a dog against bigger flush draws.

Your hand crushes any range.

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UH...

You want them to fold. We have J high. They make a mistake when they fold, not when they get all in with us.

edit: i'm not sure i'm saying that i want to c/r; just saying that your logic is weird/sucks.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

bet 850-900 see who hangs around

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

It depends on my image and opponents. In the $100r, I make a gay bet reasonably sure in the knowledge that some lag bastard will shove over the top. In general, I just shove here. That widens/narrows/throws-to-the-wind calling ranges but I don't give a toss as long as I'm all in before the next card.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

I fold pf and lead the flop for 1200

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
After I bet 1300 my stack is about 7k. How the f do I get to put a last bet in with any sort of FE

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is with people thinking fold equity is important. You are a favorite over JJ, a flip with T9, QJ, and not that big of a dog against bigger flush draws.

Your hand crushes any range.

[/ QUOTE ]


UH...

You want them to fold. We have J high. They make a mistake when they fold, not when they get all in with us.

edit: i'm not sure i'm saying that i want to c/r; just saying that your logic is weird/sucks.

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i think timex's point is that no one is ever raise/folding here, so no matter how nice it'd be for that to happen it is pretty irelevant because it's like never happening

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

yea i know, which is why someone suggested the idea of the c/r instead of bet-3bet, which i think could be right.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

Shove it, because that folds the hands we want to fold.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

but i think that's overkill, we can get more value out of the hand than what's in the pot now

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

What calls a shove in the $200r?
What folds to a shove but is priced in with a CR or 3B?

We don't mind taking this down now, but we also don't mind getting calls from TP or overpairs or two-pair but we don't want QJ or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] coming along.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

i think i sort of like registrar's line. Your hand could even look like JJ not wanting any flat callers with that flop and the hands you don't want shoving on you fold to the shove. kind of a donk play but hmmmmmm

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

I've only played the $100r but, given the stacks, I don't see anyone ever folding to a three-bet or CR here and we don't want this checked through. And our hand plays a lot better against a shove calling range than it does agaisnt a reraising or bet/calling range on this board, multiway.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

i never even considered open shoving but im starting to like. Anyone else think it's good here?

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

With QJhh I don't mind a shove for value here, but your hand isn't good enough to open shove IMO. Without any other consideration, I'm guessing you may be more profitable to bet 1350 and shove the turn blind than to shove here.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

bet 1 g

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

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but i think that's overkill, we can get more value out of the hand than what's in the pot now

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How do we get more value? Are we really expecting to get flat-called? What flat calls a bet from the pfr into this board? Does that flat-calling range give up on any turn, or just the turns that pull ahead or complete their stronger draw?

I can't see why 3-betting or CR-ing gives us more value than shoving here, if we never get any folds and we're only folding after bricking two more streets.

I also think that 2+2 suffers in general from an aversion to non-standard lines. I feel that 'standard' is good in standard MTTs where our opponents will simply be bad. Standard>wrong. However, in this thing, with a bunch of regs who can read hands well and know what standard means, non-standard might/can be better. If hero shoves here, he'll get calls from hands that wouldn't call with the cards face up and folds from hands that would/should.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

i dont see why you think a c/r has on fold equity. a bet 3 bet is going to leave participants very (>2:1) committed, if we c/r a reasonable bet though, they'll only be getting like 1.6:1 or so. and our hand doesnt seem that transparent, it should get some folds i think.

I just dont think shoving is goig to get any extra folds, if we check we let someone take a stab at the pot, or maybe it checks through and we hit our outs on the turn, which should be pretty disguised, especially the straight. If it checks through then I don't mind taking a stab at it myself on the turn.

i'm still waking up, so this isnt the most coherent post.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

Top of the morning to you.

Well, there's two problems with a check-raise. First, it sucks if it checks through unless we turn one of three sevens. Secondly, on this board and in this tournie, a CR shove simply isn't going to get any credit. OK, I'm guessing about that, because I've not played it but I'm not betting into this board and folding to a CR in the $100r for example. WTF am I supposed to put OP on if he CR pushes here?

However, villain simply can't call a shove with QJo or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] X [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and the other villains in the hand can't CR the same hands, if that was their plan.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

any heart 7 or Q is a pretty sweet turn card, J/9's are pretty good. And real blanks like a 2 or 3 are probably good cards for us to bet aswell

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

Shove the flop....donkey move but I think it is the best line in this spot...especially in a rebuy.

QJ/AXh are not going to fold to your flop bet. If you hit your flush or straight you don't know if caller hit the nuts. If you push draws fold and you will get called by tt/99/maybe 22 and both your draws are live. Most of the time you are taking it down on the flop.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

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If you push draws fold and you will get called by tt/99/maybe 22

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if villain is folding flopped set after you overshove, then let's look more into that.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

Villain isn't going to fold many/any made hands to a shove but, on that board, we're going to felt pretty quick V TP+.

The point is that villain is folding most/all draws.

No one has persuaded that this is unsound for anything other than aesthetic reasons, on that board, against these opponents, after this action and with this hand.

Re: $200r, flop hits me hard
 

I think you are just trying to take down this pot right here....there are better flush and straight draws that you want to be sure not to play against because they will felt you. Worst case scenario you want to be up against two pair or trips which is why you push.

If you bet 1300 and villain calls what do you do if...
heart comes on turn
Q comes on turn

You will be either way ahead or way behind but you are going to have to put a lot of chips at risk to find out.

This is sittuation where you need to be careful what you wish for. Push is good for your image too.