Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

Relevant history: I post CO, flop a wheel w/ nut flush draw, wheel card gets counterfeited on river and I get 1/4'd when was in excellent position to scoop. An orbit later I flopped the nut flush in a 3-way pot and we capped the flop, one bet on the turn, and I called a board pairing donk-bet on the river, player behind me raised, original bettor 3-bets, I muck.

Stuck 21 BB's in 3 orbits. Maybe tilting a little. Don't know if anyone suspects it.

I limp UTG+1 Ax2x5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], CO raises, BB calls, I call.

Flop
3-4-K one [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks, i bet, CO raises, BB folds, I 3-bet, CO calls.

Turn
Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I bet, CO raises, I 3-bet, he calls

River

Qx

I'll give the results later.

Who does what on the river? Everything else is pretty standard for me. Villain was playing 2 tables of 25/50 NLHE when he was on this table, have never played w/ him before.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

Hi Tx,

Bet the river and call a raise ('cause the pot's too big to fold). Players can raise the turn with any 2 pair, and sometimes with just a K, and they'll talk themselves into calling almost always on the river, especially given a maybe-tilting opponent. So many people jam big low-wraps on the turn, so he doesn't HAVE to put you on a flush or a boat on the river.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

I can't see bet/call being right. You have A high right? You don't even beat a bluff do you?

In this spot since the pot is so big I like bet/fold or check/raise. If you bet you might get called by some really random hand that beats you but if you c/r you might get the same random hand to lay down.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

I like bet-fold best, followed distantly by check-fold. Getting 11:1 i like trying to get hands like A2JT,A23x,A24x,A25x,A266,A234 or maybe A56, etc to fold by betting. but given how he's played it this seems like he's got 33,44,K3,AA,A2JJ etc pretty often so you're going to get looked up alot. problem with check-raising is that most of the hands you want to fold will take free showdowns while most of the hands he'll bet he'll call with imho and you invest 2 bets so it needs to work 2x as often to be better option.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

where was this game going...

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

I voted bet.

I think gergery says it best. I think you are beaten here. A bet gives you your last realistic shot at winning the pot. If he bets back at you, it's time to give it up - after a nice long pause to dissuade him from thinking you tried to steal with Ace high of course.

I can see the check-fold move, and don't blame players for making it, I just hate to give up the pot without a fight.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

"but given how he's played it this seems like he's got 33,44,K3,AA,A2JJ etc pretty often so you're going to get looked up alot"

I don't play this high, but to me it smells like one of two things...AA or Ah2hxx (maybe with a counterfeit protection with a 5, MAYBE 6)...The way the hand plays out there's no way he's not looking you up with AA (I'd be shocked if he would muck that here), especially if you are stuck and being viewed as "tilted"...He could definitely look you up with a lot less than AA in this place if that was the case, I voted for check-fold...

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

I challenge anybody who voted check-call to defend their answer. We have A6 high here.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

If bet/call a raise is correct, I will take back all my previous criticism of cero_z

However, there are very few opponents I know who would
bluff-raise this river on this board in the games I play,
perhaps the 50/100 plays that much different from 10/20,
but calling with nothing just cause the pot is big is
still just calling with nothing.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

I agree with Greg on bet/fold. Bet/call seems wrong -- even considering the size of the pot -- unless it's worth the $100 to see his cards, because you probably don't even beat a bluff.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

bet/call, hes obviously got A25... wait, hes got 23.. A56... oh i know what hes got, 2578, yah thats it!

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

better hands won't fold, except to a c/r maybe, and that doesn't work 1/5-ish as necessary. the board paired the end--AK isn't folding to a bet.

check/fold. the only thing bet/folding is good against that makes any sense is a34x.

also, c/r the flop. 99% of hands that raise a limper are betting that flop. betting into the raiser for isolation with your draw is bad. if you take that line, you have a lot more fold equity on later streets as well.

3betting that turn is also bad imho, unless the villain is sophisticated enough to be putting a move on what he thinks is a naked low draw.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
bet/call, hes obviously got A25... wait, hes got 23.. A56... oh i know what hes got, 2578, yah thats it!

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont even get your jokes.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

oh, and if this is sh, limping preflop is also bad.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]
If bet/call a raise is correct, I will take back all my previous criticism of cero_z


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I thought we had the nut flush on a paired board; with A6 high I vote check-fold and don't know how anything else could be correct.

wiseheart, what past criticisms are you referring to? Sorry I missed those. Did they go, "I PM'd this guy with a bunch of hard-luck stories about running hot at 10-20, then going busto at 30-60, and he responded with free coaching in the form of several long messages for no reason other than to help me out?" Or was there something else I did?

Edit: OK bet/fold is reasonable but probably wrong; when you're running that bad they expect you to bluff and will certainly call with 2 pair, sometimes bluff-raise the river with a busted low.

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

[ QUOTE ]

wiseheart, what past criticisms are you referring to? Sorry I missed those. Did they go, "I PM'd this guy with a bunch of hard-luck stories about running hot at 10-20, then going busto at 30-60, and he responded with free coaching in the form of several long messages for no reason other than to help me out?" Or was there something else I did?



[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

Re: Fun hand 50/100 LO8
 

Hi Tex - It's hard to imagine CO raising each round without an ace or a pair. Since there is no worse hand than yours CO could have that contains an ace, if CO has an ace, then you're either tied or beaten. If CO has a pair, any pair, then you're beaten.

Check/call doesn't work because Villain is not going to bet unless he can beat your call. Check/raise doesn't work either because after Hero checks, Villain, wary of the possibility of being check/raised is not going to bet without trip queens or better (and then he calls the raise).

Thus the choices narrow down to bet or check/fold.

Check/fold would seem the better play if the pot were not so large.

But because of the size of the pot, you should give your opponent a chance to make a mistake. Thus you should bet and hope you don't get called or raised. It's unlikely, but possible. Only has to happen one time in a dozen to be correct.

CO might lay down a better but pairless ace to a bet. Or CO might lay down a lowly pair. Neither is likely, but from my experience opponents lay down winning hands to a bet at least one time in a dozen.

Most likely, if you bet you will get called and lose your bet. But sometimes, and I think more than once in a dozen, your bet will win the pot.

I think getting raised on the river here would be unusual (unless villain flopped a set of kings). How likely is Villain to have a set of kings? Logically, the odds are roughly 52 to 1 against it.

I'm getting an eerie feeling Villain held a pair of kings and thus flopped a set of kings and rivered kings full, even though the odds are much against it. But if so, then Villain's raising makes complete sense, including not capping for deceptive purposes on the second and third betting rounds.

For table image reasons, I hate to bet and then fold to a raise. But in this case, I agree with Greg that if you get raised, bet/fold is the best option. if you get raised on the river, you're probably up against a monster kings full.

All the same, I like betting the river and hoping Villain concedes. If you don't always bet the river in these scenarios, your bet has a better chance of success here.

Buzz