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Villain here is newer in these games but has standard TAGgy stats (30/22/1.9)

STandard?
Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $15/$30
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Donger is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Donger raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Donger calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.67SB, 2 players)
Donger checks, Button bets, Donger raises, Button calls.

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5.83BB, 2 players)
Donger bets, Button raises, Donger calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9.83BB, 2 players)
Donger bets..

I'd usually cap preflop. Not always though. I don't donkbet this river because I don't know of any 30/22/1.9 players who don't bet the river for me and obviously I'm not folding to a raise. They will fold their busted spade/heart draw and will raise with better hands and QJ/KQ, so I'd rather just let them fire one more time with busted spade/hearts and with all better hands and even some worse ones like JJ/TT that they call with anyway.

Rob

why not 3bet the turn instead? this river card doesn't change anything. now when 4 bets go in on the big streets you're likely behind.

I cap preflop btw, and as played I would call down from the turn raise.

why are you doing this? Is he freeshowdown raising a lot?

Its not a bluff so your doing it for value, but I think its FPS

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why not 3bet the turn instead? this river card doesn't change anything. now when 4 bets go in on the big streets you're likely behind.

I cap preflop btw, and as played I would call down from the turn raise.

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I thought this was an inventive way to play this hand. It's become super fashionable these days (at least on absolute) to raise/fold this turn with small pairs and showdownable ace-high hands. If I 3bet this turn, his better hands are capping and then I'm forced to call this river. (5 bets total on two streets). As played, I lose 4 bets when I'm raised on the river.

If he has a mediocre hand like a middling pair or AK/AJ, he folds when I 3bet the turn and I get 2 bets. My way, I gain an extra bet as I think he doesn't fold any of these hands on the river.

Entity: I think he has to be a gonzo value bettor to be betting the bottom 2/3s of his range when I'm ahead here. Also, given the PF action, I think his range is really weighted toward pairs/ace high type hands and less toward straight/flush draws

There are also metagame considerations. Being raise-folded by mediocre hands when OOP sucks and this should at least discourage perceptive opponents and set up some weird lines for later.

Anyway, that was my thinking. You guys still think its that bad?

I think it's a pretty cool line given your description of the game dynamic. It's interesting how waiting a street usually changes FSD bet/folds into calls.

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Entity: I think he has to be a gonzo value bettor to be betting the bottom 2/3s of his range when I'm ahead here. Also, given the PF action, I think his range is really weighted toward pairs/ace high type hands and less toward straight/flush draws

There are also metagame considerations. Being raise-folded by mediocre hands when OOP sucks and this should at least discourage perceptive opponents and set up some weird lines for later.

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I don't think the metagame reasons apply at all in these games and I seriously think you're inventing reasons and ranges in the first part that don't valuebet here that call. Basically I'm saying if he has AJ he doesn't call that often and if he has 77 he doesn't not bet it as often as you seem to think, and you still have to deal with the fact that you're losing any chance to get a bet from heart and flush draws which will often, in this game, fire the river again when they've bluffed the turn. And they will, of course, bluff the turn. My guess offhand is you're going to see something like 20% FSDR's, 50% legit hands, and 30% bluffs in these games. Maybe 25% FSDR's vs 50/25 other two. Let's say he has:

JT+, 66+

You're preventing any hands from bluffing and only really inducing a call, if you're incredibly lucky, out of a rare AK-type hand that FSDR'd the turn. Generally they won't bet AK on the river and might call with it like 15-20% of the time, but as for AT and AJ, I think that chance is relatively nonexistent. Offhand I'd wager that there are less than 12 combos of Ax hands that would pay off here that don't bet anyway. So maybe 12 Ax, 6x 77, 6x88. So 24 combos you get 1 more bet from, on a lucky day. In these games I'm reasonably certain TT and JJ bet the river vs you for value, so you earn nothing there. You lose 2 bets to 1 combo of QQ, 3 of 99, .5 of 55 (weighted 1/2 b/c they usually 3bet PF with that hand but not always and don't always peel flop), 6 to KK and 6 to AA. So basically you win 24BB extra by betting (even if we say TT and JJ don't bet the river 1/2 the time that's only 30BB) and you lose back 31BB by bet-calling in that spot. So you can kinda see that unless you get super generous with his calling range and/or super generous with his bluffraising range it's a bit tough to equal out. Then you have to factor in the chance, albeit small, that he 3barrels hands like JTs (4), KTss (1), KThh (1).

You seem to think your line looks like a bluff. I don't think it looks like a bluff at all, though I don't think it looks quite as strong as it is. Often I see this exact line from hands that are basically K9-ish.

As is I think it looks cutesy and creative but isn't actually as good as it looks. And if you posted the villain's name here I'd be able to more accurately assess it but I think it's just bad straight up, possibly worse if I had a specific read.

Rob

Very bad pointless river bet.

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Very bad pointless river bet.

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Dont you think that's a little harsh? I talked to buffsta about this on msn and he said he would have check called b/c he hates bet/folding, but that the way I played it wasn't bad and just different. I was trying to vary my play and frustrate a specific (and overused) line.

Can't something be different without being "very bad" and "pointless?"

Results (oriented): villain had 66, MHIG.

i started doing this because i was seeing like AJo here a ton. I like the hand overall. well played.

You were bet/calling the river right? Sucks when he has KK but oh welllllll.

Oh I also cap pf though. I get 3-bet like 95%* of the time i raise so i have to take a stand somewhere hollller.

*this is an exageration but i find that lately a lot of tags spew-bet vs. me

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I thought this was an inventive way to play this hand. It's become super fashionable these days (at least on absolute) to raise/fold this turn with small pairs and showdownable ace-high hands.

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It's probably close, but given your read I think it's impossible to call this a bad line. I think this is a great way to annoy the hell out of the free-showdown folks, as well as get value out of the occasional bluff-raise from the busted draw on the river.

Of course, against a monkey like that . . . I'd like to hear your thoughts on just manning up and 3-betting this turn. If you put them on TT or A9 or a weak queen or something like that, they very well might call your turn 3bet, and call a non-spade-or-heart river because they put you on a 20%+ chance of a turn 3-bet semibluff with hearts, spades, JT, or whatever.

I would have 3-bet the turn. Not sure why you think AA/KK would auto-cap (though admittedly they might raise the river after the board pairs).

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Very bad pointless river bet.

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Dont you think that's a little harsh?

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I dont think so. All this bet does is stop a bluff and potentially get owned by a better hand since im sure youre not bet/folding. If the villain has a lesser made hand he will usually bet the river for you so in most cases check/calling makes the same as betting when you have the best hand.

Basically when you bet the river you are attacking a very small range of made hands that wont bet the river but will call a bet. Trust me when I tell you that attacking this small range is not worth the trouble. Put another way, you will lose more money becuz of the bad things that can happen when you bet the river than you will make when something good happens.

BTW, I dont care about the results of this hand.

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Oh I also cap pf though. I get 3-bet like 95%* of the time i raise so i have to take a stand somewhere hollller.

*this is an exageration but i find that lately a lot of tags spew-bet vs. me

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Yeah, i have been toying with smooth calling these types of hands vs a semiloose 3-bettor if the blinds dump. It kind of obfuscates your hand, sets up a CR if you want one, and makes calling down more profitable (he's more likely to keep firing with a worse hand)

I respect your opinion and think you're a good poster, but I think we just have to agree to disagree here. I think the range of crap that he's willing to call with that he won't bet is > the range of worse hands that he bluffs, and I can occasionally induce a bluff raise here. This could boil down to game/site conditions. Nobody on AP ever folds here, like sometimes even KJ 8th levels it and calls the river donk.

I think the reason that it is bad is because the majority of hands he will have are either

a) hands that are ahead and raise (this is a very safe river and it will be easy for KK to raise)

or

b) hands you beat that he will bet for you anyway

The only time your donk is the right play is when he has a free showdown hand like 66. Do you honestly think that's what he has over 50% of the time, w/out any read?

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Oh I also cap pf though. I get 3-bet like 95%* of the time i raise so i have to take a stand somewhere hollller.

*this is an exageration but i find that lately a lot of tags spew-bet vs. me

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Yeah, i have been toying with smooth calling these types of hands vs a semiloose 3-bettor if the blinds dump. It kind of obfuscates your hand, sets up a CR if you want one, and makes calling down more profitable (he's more likely to keep firing with a worse hand)

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How does it obfuscate your hand? You think ppl will not put you on AQ because you didn't cap? MOST people don't cap AQ so you'd be obfuscating your hand by capping.

Cap preflop for value and initiative.

The line that will get the most value out of an aggressive player like this is a turn value 3bet. He will be semibluffing a draw on this insanely drawy board a good chunk of the time, and may be "slowplaying" a hand like KQ, QJs, etc. If he caps c/c river.

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Cap preflop for value and initiative.

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Can you explain why this is good? I get the value part, but is initiative that good out of position? I plan on showing this down a lot, i'm way ahead of his range, so don't I want to take lines that induce him to keep betting worse hands?

RE: playing AK/Q facing heat OOP, I've just been thinking a lot about the posts stellarwind made a while back where he talks about never 3-betting from the BB.