Turn c/r or Donk?
 

PF 3better seems to be a 30/20 laggish. PF Capper was 20/10/2

Given the PF action, the fact that my hand is well disguised, my relative position, my opponents... what is the best play on the turn? Please give your reasoning for your action.

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Flop: (13.40 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, Hero calls, MP calls.

Turn: (8.20 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

I would fold preflop.

i donkbet here because we want that MP calls. If we check-raise MP will often fold. Button could also check-behind on the Turn. If button has KK he will give you action after a donkbet.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

sry

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

I vote for betting. First, the button could check through with QQ/TT/AQs which would be a disaster. Second, he's fairly likely to raise with AA/AK because a donk bet here looks, well, donkish. If you CR you'll probably only get 3 bet by KK/JJ.

Lost Wages

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

I'm thinking that I like a donk here. I think that you've got a good chance of it getting raised by either of two villains and it'd be great if MP raised and button calls so you can 3 bet. Worst case scenario though is if MP folds and button just calls but I really think on this board one of the villains is putting in a raise here. If we try to c/r then we may end up getting MP to fold and we only get 2 bets from button. I just think that we've got a very good chance to get a lot of action with a donk here, more than we probably will get with a c/r.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold preflop.



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How bad is this? I ask because at first this was my gut reaction too but then thinking about it I see that we're getting 5.5 to one on a call here. Do we call and then just muck unless the flop hits us really hard? The problem I have here is if we get top pair it can be very expensive to see the turn here with a probable worse hand. Of course, I suppose with Top pair the pot is big enough to continue with the outs that we have depending on the board.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

I think he ment folding in the first place..calling that cap is meh...i dont like it very much &gt; dont mind folding to the cap too but why dont we raise the Flop or even b/3b the Flop?

As palyed i donk that Turn

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

I wouldn't raise that preflop all of the time, but it's good to mix it up. easy call of preflop cap imo; we are getting 5:1 and our hand plays well multiway and can win big pots.

I think we need to put more bets in on the flop. we have a big equity edge here over everything but a set. I like a flop lead hoping to be raised by the button so we can jam it up, but c/r is ok too. we might even fold out JJ-QQ since button seems nitty, but we're a favourite over those hands anyways.

I don't think it matters too much what you do on the turn. both lines are fine but I lean towards a donk/tre.

edit: also I think that MP calls 2 with pretty much the same range he calls 1 with in this ginormous pot (unless he is a terrible hand reader and is planning on calling down 99-TT) so I'm not too worried about folding him out. although, it would be nice to fold out a better diamond; raises our equity around 5%.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

Donking is good here because even if the c/r works you may shut out MP (who might have called a riverbet too) and ofcourse a checkthru would be a disaster. Also you get the chance to bet/3bet against 2 pair/set hands.

If the preflopcapper was 2nd to act, checkraising becomes much more appealing.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

Depends on reads a bit but I think c(/r obv) flop &gt; bet flop. Button will never check behind but I can see a 20/10/2 type not raise anything but AK KK AA here. On the other hand as he coldcapped those hands make a lot of his range (JJ+, AK imho)... Maybe you should bet anyway... yeah bet flop hoping you get a chance to 3bang it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

As played turn is an easy donk imho, the only hand that we want to face with 2 is AQ and his range is much bigger.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

yeah, i think i should have bet,3bet the flop in retrospect. I have a pretty huge equity edge unless somebody has KK. However I did get capped so it is definitely in the range.

as played i think i do like a turn donk.

that all said...

I cr'd turn, MP folded, Button had KK and capped turn, and I led, 3bet the river.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

I'm not sure if I would call here pre-flop. I would probably fold if I was playing well.

I think you have a lot of options on the flop. I could make cases for check-raising, donking and just calling like you did.

The turn is an easy check-raise given the way you played it.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

On the flop, we have 9 outs to flush, plus 6 more outs to a straight = 15 outs = 54% of the time we're gonna win this hand. I'd be tempted to c/r that flop for value.

On the turn, as played, I try for the c/r because a donk doesn't flow with the c/c on the flop. I think it'd slow down any hand button might have... including AA, AK... probably not KK. I think we can get more out of a c/r than a donk.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

i dont like donking or check raising the flop. you dont want it headsup and that's the likely outcome of either action (mp will usually fold).

on the turn, i think a bet is good if button were more aggressive. i don't think he's going to raise with AA or AK, whereas he'll always bet these. i want 2 bets to go in here, and i don't think there's any good way to get MP involved in that.

MP holding AQ/AT is a factor too. i doubt it matters much whether he sees the river with these for one bet though.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

The whole purpose of checkcalling the flop is to preserve the checkraise for after you make your hand. If you have to lead the turn when you hit then there is no point in not jamming your big draw on the flop.

Of course the turn checkraise is actually pretty borderline because of your terrible relative and absolute position. The checkraise would be even poorer if you had hit the obvious flush instead of the unexpected straight.

When you have no idea what to do it often means you botched the previous street and that appears to be the case here. The only good solution to your turn dilemma is to prevent it by betting or checkraising the flop. That gives you immediate extra equity and when you hit your hand they are likely to misread it.

Misreading can take at least two forms. They may expect you to have flopped two pair or a small set and give too much action in the mistaken belief they have the best hand. Or they may suspect you of having a flush draw and don't recognize the made straight. Then they call down with literally anything.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like donking or check raising the flop. you dont want it headsup and that's the likely outcome of either action (mp will usually fold).

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As you can see from analyzing the turn they usually fold anyway. If you can chase MP off this flop it's unlikely you would have been paid later on.

Getting headsup in a big pot is not a terrible evil. If you come out attacking MP may fold a pocket pair and leave you headsup with AQ or something. Once in while you'll win by spiking a pair or betting Button off his hand. This is especially true if Button is the type of player who likes to test his overcards by raising them. Betting out may fold MP after which Button does his thing and calls your 3bet. Then when he misses the turn he folds. You steal the pot without investing much of any equity in your semibluff.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

20/10/2 coldcapping OTB against two tags + K87 flop = we will not win this pot unimproved.

i don't want to get HU on the flop because i'd rather see one bet go in 3-way than 2+ bets go in 2-way.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i dont like donking or check raising the flop. you dont want it headsup and that's the likely outcome of either action (mp will usually fold).

on the turn, i think a bet is good if button were more aggressive. i don't think he's going to raise with AA or AK, whereas he'll always bet these. i want 2 bets to go in here, and i don't think there's any good way to get MP involved in that.

MP holding AQ/AT is a factor too. i doubt it matters much whether he sees the river with these for one bet though.

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Good stuff

This board hits both their ranges so c/r'ing should make Hero a nice profit on average. On the other hand, if Button is fairly passive he isnt raising the donk a lot. Donking is only good if Hero gets to 3-bet since it will not get checked through a lot.

I really think this is an easy c/r.

Re: Turn c/r or Donk?
 

With greater than 50% equity on the flop, for those considering any action that will get the play heads up, isnt't the only thing we really fear is him holding KK?

The pot is already big. We shouldn't be concerned about saving bets or getting more money in the pot. We should be concerned about winning it. We want AT to fold in this case as well as AQ. AK won't fold, but we really want to increase our chances of winning this pot. If we spike a 9 or a T on the turn it will be great to have AT and AQ already folded. If they are still in the hand they would be correct to draw for the river for a gutshot or an overcard. I want these holdings to fear a raise from the capper and fold on the flop.