2/4, QTs SB defence
 

A couple of orbits into the game. Villain has been aggressive both pre and postflop. This is the third time we are involved in a blind fight and I've won both the previous ones w/ monsters getting good action. The previous one: Villain raise/call on btn vs me in SB w A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. He raises J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. He bet/calls 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and raise/cap 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] losing to my 88.

Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>.. (figuring he would have raised an OESD on the flop)

Fold preflop? (This is what I use to do)
Turn 3bet?
What's your plan after this? C/c any scare card if he just calls?

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

I like the 3 bet here I think it's too pretty to fold and you must resteal on the sb you can't let the BB in.
Once you hit the flop time to extract from our loose agressive opponent.
Your line above is top skill, you've bet your strong hand and he raised, it's Christmas, you're miles ahead(he's probably got AQ and looking for revenge.) If he's got a set oh well.....

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

you played it perfect

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

if he calls teh 3 bet and the River is a 8 or K you can b/f imho b/c the rest and 3 bet if you fill up up obv..if he caps you c/c basiclly any River in my book except an Ace

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he calls teh 3 bet and the River is a 8 or K you can b/f imho b/c the rest and 3 bet if you fill up up obv..if he caps you c/c basiclly any River in my book except an Ace

[/ QUOTE ]

ARRRGH! Dont bloat the pot and then bet/fold against a tricky player!

@ OP

The hand is fine. Easy 3-bet preflop. Easy 3-bet on the turn. If a scare card falls c/c or b/c the river. If he caps the turn get to SD. Just dont fold!

There should be some way of public punishment of 2p2'ers who bet/folds against aggro tricky players in big pots when villains range up untill the bet/fold is huge. Shame on you wunderkind!

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

so you 3 bet the Turn he calls &gt; River is an Ace of hearts &gt; now there TQ9A 3 hearts on the Baord you bet &gt; he raises&gt; what do you beat???

" dont blow the pot and then fold for one bet vs aggro Players " while this is true as a a general statement i still can fold vs them on this Baord for one bet unless theyre spewtards&gt; i bet you often said &gt; " dont make general assumptions &gt; play each Situation by itself "...but thats what youre doing here

If you can tell me a hand that we beat if teh River is an Ace then okay i might change my mind &gt; but please dont say Ax

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

On this board I just call the turn raise. I don't think your previous battle means that much, I'd probably cap it as well with the A-high flush and HU.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

T9, Q9, JT

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

sry but they dont raise the River

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

[ QUOTE ]
sry but they dont raise the River

[/ QUOTE ]

If you start bet/folding scare cards in big pots they will.

[ QUOTE ]
" dont blow the pot and then fold for one bet vs aggro Players " while this is true as a a general statement i still can fold vs them on this Baord for one bet unless theyre spewtards&gt; i bet you often said &gt; " dont make general assumptions &gt; play each Situation by itself "...but thats what youre doing here


[/ QUOTE ]

From the read posted by OP I think he is quite the spewtard.

I would never trust him enough to fold getting 13.5:1. His range when he raises the turn is huge containg all sorts of draws that wont make it with the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Even hands with marginal SD value will raise the river. Some players are THAT dumb. I see those retarded river bluffs just about every day. While it may not happen a lot on Ongame, you cant play 10 minutes of 5/T at party without seeing at least 1 sick retarded bluff, even with hands that has SD value. There is no way you are ever gonna convince me that bet/folding A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] is good against this player in this spot. IMO its horrible! (No offense)

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

I thought QTs were borderline here preflop, because of domination and lack of SD value. Anyway, on to the river that made me think about the hand afterwards..


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
5 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (5 players) Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button calls without hesitation.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero?

I'm thinking c/c'ing might be best here:
*I'm now behind to e.g. AQ and spade draws.
*A missed hearts flush draw will fold if he didn't hit the A. A check might induce a bluff, but not likely when I have shown this much strength.
*He might value bet some worse hands like Q9 that got afraid of the straight possibility or AJ.

But of course, I'm losing value against a lot of hands that call too, KQ, QJ or some other strangely played holdings.
And I'm not sure we can pin point his range.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

so we agree that it depends on the games we play&gt; i think the Hand OP posted is quite reasonable played from him&gt; if he would be a spewtard he would have capped preflop and the Turn &gt; at least he overplayed the River with the NUTflush and made a questionable Flopraise...this is not a spewtard...if i see a player spewing i call him all day long

believe me b/f isnt horrible&gt; at least not in the ongame 5/10 environment ...if this is an unknown theres no way im folding but if we have some kind of history like here and i have a strong image i really dont mind vs him&gt; OP siad he aggro but not dumb spewy or whatever and the example hand is not horrible played by him...

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

[ QUOTE ]
From the read posted by OP I think he is quite the spewtard.

[/ QUOTE ]

What I had on him from before:
*Him 3b ATo vs MP on btn, betting flop/turn UI and checking behind.
*Him calling my UTG raise. Donking AQT F. C/c'ing X turn. C/r'ing and calling my 3b on 7 river w A7 and losing.
*Then the hand described in my first post and some other steal I don't remember.

He had something like 35 VPIP looking at it now, but not that many hands. Not a maniac anyway.

I missed a lot 3-4 tabling, but he seemed to be too aggressive postflop.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

is this really such an easy turn 3bet? there are a [censored] ton of combos of JK and 8J that will take us to value village.

I'd expect a pair to raise the flop most of the time.

even if we say:
behind 8J*16, KJ*16
ahead AQ*12, 9T*9, Q9*9

we are ahead less than half the time. and I think that the Q hands should be discounted b/c of the flop action (and AQ gets capped preflop a lot).

of course if villain will semibluff a J or flush draw here we are looking a lot better.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

TheWunderkind, I play the same games you do, admittedly I play them horribly and am most likely a loser...

However I have to agree with Oink here, against aggressive villains you simply cannot make the pot big and then fold the river for one more bet. I know this is a generalization but sometimes generalising is ok.

If you regularly bloat the pot and then fold for one more bet against aggressive players, they will take advantage.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

the point is no one raises the River without the goods especially @ ongame where no one would fold a T on the River and thats the reason why NO ONE besides known maniacs would raise that River with thrash&gt;as long if youre aware of your image i dont think its a big deal&gt; if like oink said that bluffs of that sort are common then if its an easy call...

the only reason id call is for metagame reasons otherwise , if there are good thinking aggros on the table then i want them to know that i call them down no matter what but then ill find a new table tough...otherwise i save 1 BB what all other would have lost


I dont know &gt; call is not horrible obv but please dont expect to make money with that call...

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

[ QUOTE ]
the point is no one raises the River without the goods especially @ ongame where no one would fold a T on the River and thats the reason why NO ONE besides known maniacs would raise that River with thrash...

I dont know &gt; call is not horrible obv but please dont expect to make money with that call...

[/ QUOTE ]

I play onGame as well and these two quotes simply aren't true in my experience, and this is why we disagree.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

we still speak about non manaical opponents?

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

Yes, but we do speak about aggressive tricky opponents.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

today i paid of some of those River raises and always lost &gt; raising this River has nothing to do with tricky where everybody is a sd monkey + you have a strong image &gt; why would a tryicky aggro Player raise this River with Q9 T9 or a lone Ace?

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

btw hows that opponent tricky?

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

i mean all those lower two pair hands dont raise River once they just called the Turn 3bet

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

and an Ace is just wishfull thinking in my view...hes a little overaggro and overplayed nutflush on paired Board(wich ahppens to em when i mis the fact that the board is paired)...so i just dont see any reason to expect to make money with that call&gt; im with you if you talk about metagame

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

Because you fold too much. I don't care how many times you lost today. As I said if you regularly bloat the pot and then fold you'll lose money, and you only have to be right once in 14 to call this river! You'll easily be good often enough to call a river raise against aggressive tricky players no matter what site you play at.

If you want to make big laydowns do it in SMALL pots, not after bloating the pot!

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

how do i fold too much?If i fold to much i wouldnt have lost all the River raises i pair off. 36/57 are reasonable for that Level ...i know that the Pot is big and we get 13,5:1 to call &gt; you dont need to explain me that ive heard about it...the Point is you have no reason to believe youre good&gt; you just say hes aggro blah and tricky(wich no one said tough)...iam aggro too and you too i guess but hes not a maniac but you expect him to make a maniacal raise with A x&lt;9 because OP said hes aggro...that doesnt fit&gt; please look at both hand were he raised the River &gt; once he cappe dwith the Nutflush on a paired Baord and once he c/r when he rivered Aces up....hows that tricky? Or how lets that even assume that he woudl raise the River with a lone Ace here?And you have no reason to believe that villain thinks that OP would fold a better hand or call with a worse...thats the real reason &gt; 8:1 or 14:1 doesnt matter much here in my view but whatever...


i dont want to discuss about that anymore becaus eit doesnt lead to conclusion &gt; I know what youre talking about but we have just different opinions about how often were good here &gt; thats all &gt; i know what youre talking about &gt; Limit holdem is not a Game of Big folds &gt; dont fold in Big Pots etc...i might just call myself in the heat of teh battle as i did today but looking at it i still dont expect to be good 1 in 14 here...

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

Muck that cheese preflop, double so against an opponent who's going to put you to the test postflop. Be honest with yourself; do you really think that you will show a profit by 3-betting QTs OOP or are you 3-betting because you know he's "stealing" and you don't want him to get away with it. The latter is a natural human reaction and happens to all of us. Pick a better spot IMHO.

As played, the turn is an easy 3 bet. You are waaaay ahead of his range.

Lost Wages

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

It's pretty tough to pay off a river raise here. We have represented a set or a straight on the turn. A two pair hand is probably in the bottom range of hands you could hold in villain's mind. So even with AQ, he's unlikely to raise the river cuz he knows he's going to get 3-bet a lot by TT/99/KJ etc.

But there are so many bets in the pot on the river that folding the best hand could be a huge mistake. But what worse hand could villain raise on the river? I can't even think of one. If he's dumb or crazy enough to raise this river with QJ, you should call. Some players I'm sure are apt to make this play because their pair and oesd didn't pan out, frustrating them to the point of spewing on the river. If he's one of these emotional types, I suppose it makes money to call. But even with that read it's hard to believe that villain could raise this river with a worse hand. I think that if I were playing the hand, I'd bet/fold and not feel too good about it.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

yeah if he might be on tilt because he lost a bunch of hands before might make it a call

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

what do you put his range at after he raises the turn?

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

In general I don't like the "call because the pot is big" line either, but with the impression I had of this guy I would not have considered folding.

So, if we don't b/f, do you prefer b/c or c/c on this specific river?

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

99 44 A9 AJ AT AQ Q9 T9 KJ J8 KQ basiclly

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

TWK when I wrote that you fold too much it was in response to you asking why a non-maniac would raise this river with a worse hand. A tricky aggressive player will raise the river in a pot this size often enough for you to call, and he'll especially do it if you fold too much. I of course have no idea whether you do fold too much. I'm sorry if this wasn't clear from my original post.

I agree that this discussion isn't fruitful, since we disagree about the premises on which this hand was played. In my book a villain who raises A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on the J66 flop and bet/calls the turn 8 is aggressive and tricky. Bottom line is that folding can be a huge mistake, while calling at worst is a small one. I will repeat myself one more time and say that folding decent hands in big pots against aggressive tricky players is a big leak.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

so what hands exactly?


I also disagree that folding can be that huge of a mistake because most of the Time you just loose

as i said &gt; when iam at a Table iam always aware of my image and in that hand villains image was pretty good so no reason even for a tricky and aggro player to believe villain will fold a better ahnd or call with a worse one here

Whatever i agree with the overall message of your Posts

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

we are going to be capped by a set or straight, so we need to be ahead 66% of the time to 3bet since we are risking 2 bets (well, we do have some equity but w/e) to win 1 (and so does he usually, but I don't want to work all that out).

behind: 99*3, 44*3, KJ*16, J8*16 --&gt; 38 combos
ahead: A9*12 (quite unlikely imo), AJ*16 (meh maybe), AT*12 (unlikely imo), AQ*12 (somewhat likely), T9*9, KQ*8 --&gt; 69 combos

so we are ahead 64% of the time. and to be honest I really don't think his range is that wide. AT and A9 especially seem very unlikely, and he will raise the flop with pairs a lot of the time.

imo straights make up a big part of his range. I would have reraised this at the table for sure, but I don't think it's right versus a non-spewtard.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

you guys definitely need to put stuff like QJ/JT/A9hh/J9 in his range as well. way more likely than A9/AT/AJ.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

You can eaisly add QJ and of course QT to his range. We don't have a great read after a couple of orbits other than it apperars he's aggressive. If he loose/aggressive his range is much wider: 89, K9, any pocket pair raising for free showdown, maybe even any ace, some ridiculous hands like 6s5s (yes lags call the flop with that). Remember also, the villian just lost a huge pot with an ace-high flush against the hero so it's likely he ticked and the chances that his turn raise is out of frustration is higher.

Lost Wages

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

[ QUOTE ]
some ridiculous hands like 6s5s

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much what he had
5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

lol that makes my posts pretty much worthless, no wait not unless he did bluffraise the River &gt; did he?

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

[ QUOTE ]
Muck that cheese preflop, double so against an opponent who's going to put you to the test postflop. Be honest with yourself; do you really think that you will show a profit by 3-betting QTs OOP or are you 3-betting because you know he's "stealing" and you don't want him to get away with it. The latter is a natural human reaction and happens to all of us. Pick a better spot IMHO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree strongly with the above. Without stoving it, I imagine QTs does well vs. this guys range, which, as described, is immense. Not to mention the dead money of the BB folding, and the fact that villain is spewtarded postflop. Yes, we're OOP, but that's not so terrible against a villain who will be our hands for us.

Maybe it's a leak of mine, but I'm hard-pressed to think of a single reg in the PS 2/4 that I would not 3-bet QTs from the SB vs. a button steal - I feel that I either get fold equity from the 3-bet, or know that they will overplay post flop enough to make up for any -EQ my hand has hot and cold.

Re: 2/4, QTs SB defence
 

About preflop, depending on how bb plays, this looks like it could be a good spot to cold call.