10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

Do you think the 10/20 6-max on WPEX is significantly harder than the 10/20 6-max on Stars to the point where it isnt worth the 100% rakeback? I am looking to move up to 10/20 and am deciding where to play. So far I have had no problem beating the 8/16 6-max on Bodog.

Thoughts anyone?

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

Games on wpex are mostly 3-6 handed. Players that play 10/20 also play 5/10, 20/40 and 30/60. My recolection is that players from Englad pound like theres no tomorow. Its an aggro donk fest. Variance kicks in plus get ready for a [censored] of suckouts and re-suckouts. Da Enigma or whatever is solid watch out for Mr.mumusan. My sugestions is you open a table you want to play and spect it for a few orbits and then decide.
People defend their blinds like holy grail small blinds are liberal 3bettors applies to BBs too. (Q9o+)

GL

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

i stopped playing there cause of all the chasers hitting their gutshots and steuff

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
i stopped playing there cause of all the chasers hitting their gutshots and steuff

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't beat people who play that bad.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

i know. you have to know where your at.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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Da Enigma or whatever is solid.

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haha enig, how are you doing youre great i love you. pm me or something if you are 2+2. hmmm.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

hmm only one solid player?

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Da Enigma or whatever is solid.

[/ QUOTE ]


haha enig, how are you doing youre great i love you. pm me or something if you are 2+2. hmmm.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol?

I mean, you didn't know?

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

People can chase guttshots on me all day. Thats like saying I quit because they play so bad. Clearly the variance will be higher but I will take that over a table full of solid players.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

If any of you guys want a bot list for WPEX 5/10+ feel free to PM me. It's a work in progress but it's getting longer every day...

Edit: I also have a "non-bot" and an "unconfirmed either way" list.

___1___

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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People can chase guttshots on me all day. Thats like saying I quit because they play so bad. Clearly the variance will be higher but I will take that over a table full of solid players.

[/ QUOTE ]

f the chasers

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think the 10/20 6-max on WPEX is significantly harder than the 10/20 6-max on Stars to the point where it isnt worth the 100% rakeback? I am looking to move up to 10/20 and am deciding where to play. So far I have had no problem beating the 8/16 6-max on Bodog.

Thoughts anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two things jump at me. Your individual playing style is important (ie what your strengths and weaknesses are, what players you play best against) when deciding what type of opponent you want to have.
Secondly the Stars players club system is highly weighted toward higher volume players who play every month. If your a more casual 5,000 hand a month player the stars club isn't worth a heck of a lot. if your going to hit supernova in 6 months and reap those benefits then they become a lot more competitive for you.

My last 9,000 hands have been played at stars 10/20. The games aren't great (compared to my old games) but they are passable.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

meh, its hard to weigh out exactly which is more profitable.

wpex games are significantly tougher. however if ur a winner at stars 10/20 and your good at dealing w/ higher variance and the swings dont hurt/affect you, id say go for wpex. play 2-3 tables and if your eeking out even a smallish profit besides the rake, thats a [censored] ton of +$$ in rake.

edit: i meant to say, play both. id keep money on wpex but if the game is horrible, dont sit

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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hmm only one solid player?

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Still can't figure out who you are there. I can only name 4 solid players and I know who they all are. Everyone else is a weird LAG fish to some degree.

Also I will completely back up __1__ that there are bots on that site if anyone thinks he is just spouting something random.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

US players can still play on wpex right?

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hmm only one solid player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still can't figure out who you are there. I can only name 4 solid players and I know who they all are. Everyone else is a weird LAG fish to some degree.

Also I will completely back up __1__ that there are bots on that site if anyone thinks he is just spouting something random.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there are definitely some bots on the site, but to be totally self-serving, I don't mind them since they're pretty easy to beat. On the other hand, there's a couple players who are just so flat-out weird that I don't know whether they're a bot or a human.

And hurray for being a LAG-fish. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hmm only one solid player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still can't figure out who you are there. I can only name 4 solid players and I know who they all are. Everyone else is a weird LAG fish to some degree.

Also I will completely back up __1__ that there are bots on that site if anyone thinks he is just spouting something random.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm one of the usual weird LAG fish that DD speaks of and I can confirm that bots are there.

However, as many can attest, plenty of the bots are very bad and beatable so the presence of bots, while disturbing to online poker overall is not necessarily a bad thing at WPEX.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

Bots!. If it wasn't for my conscience I guess I would have one running too. What a joke, I could have a little bot playing probably better than I do and I could be out [censored] around. I guess I'm just a jealous bot hater.



Still can't figure out who you are there. I can only name 4 solid players and I know who they all are. Everyone else is a weird LAG fish to some degree.

Also I will completely back up __1__ that there are bots on that site if anyone thinks he is just spouting something random.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hmm only one solid player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still can't figure out who you are there. I can only name 4 solid players and I know who they all are. Everyone else is a weird LAG fish to some degree.

Also I will completely back up __1__ that there are bots on that site if anyone thinks he is just spouting something random.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm one of the usual weird LAG fish that DD speaks of and I can confirm that bots are there.

However, as many can attest, plenty of the bots are very bad and beatable so the presence of bots, while disturbing to online poker overall is not necessarily a bad thing at WPEX.

[/ QUOTE ]

Paging Mr. Gatorade...

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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[ QUOTE ]
hmm only one solid player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still can't figure out who you are there. I can only name 4 solid players and I know who they all are. Everyone else is a weird LAG fish to some degree.

Also I will completely back up __1__ that there are bots on that site if anyone thinks he is just spouting something random.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I even emailed you my sn and played with you a couple days after that.

Also I have no idea who the bots are at WPEX maiby I dont care since im running hot as hell. And lol I might be on some of your 'bot lists', that would be funny.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

I can't compare those two games specifically, but it's definitley worth it to have money on WPEX and feel out the 10-20 game. There are definitley some good ones that will run, along with some ones that are ok but worth it 100% RB, and then some where it's prolly not worth it. In general the variance will be higher because the games are a bit tougher and also just play in a more high variance way than on other sites. Overall though, worth having some funds there is it's possible for you to do so easily.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

WPEX is prob the easiest site to fund now as well.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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[ QUOTE ]
hmm only one solid player?

[/ QUOTE ]

Still can't figure out who you are there. I can only name 4 solid players and I know who they all are. Everyone else is a weird LAG fish to some degree.

Also I will completely back up __1__ that there are bots on that site if anyone thinks he is just spouting something random.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i was one of the weird lag fish dd speaks of also, and i take pride in that.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

I'm a weird lag fish as well

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

Oops yeah I do know your name cuz you told me but I don't remember playing with you. Looks like lots of mostly lurkers here play on the site but none of you are 20/40+ regulars unless you are twayankees and if you are I'm sorry but you are a LAG fish.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oops yeah I do know your name cuz you told me but I don't remember playing with you. Looks like lots of mostly lurkers here play on the site but none of you are 20/40+ regulars unless you are twayankees and if you are I'm sorry but you are a LAG fish.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

i played primarily 30/60, 50/100, 100/200 on wpex for a long while, and i grew to love tway... i dont think you played on there back then too much DD, probably why we only tangled a few times.

boypinoy was another that i put in a lot of interesting heads up matches against, if you are out there boypinoy im still not sure if you are good or bad

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

twayankees was a weird weird weird dude.

And OT a little, but WTF is up with the HU flop donk, turn barrell, river barrell OOP into the PF raiser with str8 up cheese, NH/ND at WPEX all the time? Maybe it's for metagame? I dunno, but WTF?

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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And OT a little, but WTF is up with the HU flop donk, turn barrell, river barrell OOP into the PF raiser with str8 up cheese, NH/ND at WPEX all the time? Maybe it's for metagame? I dunno, but WTF?

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If you're speaking specifically about HU, these are the bots. It's not about metagame, its strictly game theory. Also, people who think the bots are bad HU are mistaken.

___1___

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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And OT a little, but WTF is up with the HU flop donk, turn barrell, river barrell OOP into the PF raiser with str8 up cheese, NH/ND at WPEX all the time? Maybe it's for metagame? I dunno, but WTF?

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly suspect a lot of the players who do this are bots. After I had seen it happen a couple times and picked up on it, I started playing around with the guy and he never re-adjusted. I could raise his flop donks with nothing and take down the pot; I could wait for the turn to raise and take it down; I could wait for the river. Basically, I suspect it's just a randomizer in the bot's programming. Or, it could be a person who's just that retarded.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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If you're speaking specifically about HU, these are the bots. It's not about metagame, its strictly game theory. Also, people who think the bots are bad HU are mistaken.

___1___

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I may very well be underestimating the bots, but of the ones I've played, I didn't think any of them were tough. There were a couple who would take the aforementioned line 2-5 (if not more) hands in a row. I really don't think anyone will convince me that choosing a random series of hands to give away money for no reason is a good idea - and I have a hard time believing it's optimal from a game theory standpoint, but I might be completely wrong.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

if it's easy, you should be 4tabling them right now and just print the money.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
I may very well be underestimating the bots, but of the ones I've played, I didn't think any of them were tough. There were a couple who would take the aforementioned line 2-5 (if not more) hands in a row. I really don't think anyone will convince me that choosing a random series of hands to give away money for no reason is a good idea - and I have a hard time believing it's optimal from a game theory standpoint, but I might be completely wrong.

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First off, I'm working under the assumption that the code (HU specifically) for all these bots is the same. There could be subtle differences in how each of them is coded but I think that's unlikely.

While their play is FAR from optimal, at this point I'm not sure they are exploitable. In other words I think their play is pretty close to optimal from a game-theory standpoint (i.e not exploitable). That's just my impression so far. As I gather more information it'll likely change.

[ QUOTE ]
choosing a random series of hands to give away money for no reason is a good idea

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Game theory certainly looks this way sometimes.

___1___

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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I could raise his flop donks with nothing and take down the pot; I could wait for the turn to raise and take it down; I could wait for the river.

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You do realize, as cool as this may sound, if the bots are playing off of game theory this garners you no edge, right?

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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if it's easy, you should be 4tabling them right now and just print the money.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just stated my observations and said I could be wrong. I also said the observations weren't based on a huge sample. I don't particularly know why you took offense and I don't care. So, to make it simple, here's the answer: I don't really like playing HU, but every now and then I feel like it.

___1___ ,

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You do realize, as cool as this may sound, if the bots are playing off of game theory this garners you no edge, right?

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When I said that, I wasn't thinking about game theory. I mentioned it because I thought it was proof of a non-human playing because there wasn't a single adjustment to any adjustment I made. I didn't say it to try and seem "cool" or anything; I was just trying to further the case of likely bots on the WPEX.

As I've said, I don't know much about game theory, and for all I know, the bots have a good foundation to crush the games. If nothing else, I'm sure they don't lose enough (if any) overall to overcome the 100% rakeback.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

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I didn't say it to try and seem "cool" or anything; I was just trying to further the case of likely bots on the WPEX.

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I was saying "cool" regarding the ability to raise a particular street with air and have the bots fold. The comment had nothing to do with you specifically.

Also, it's not a matter of whether or not there are bots on WPEX. There are without question and a lot of them. From everything I've observed/logged so far, I'd guess between all limits there's easily 100+ bots on the site.

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If nothing else, I'm sure they don't lose enough (if any) overall to overcome the 100% rakeback.

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Oh, I'm sure the bots win a bunch. Especially with the ability share cards. Obviously, I have no ability to substantiate that claim. However, one thing I have looked at are what players join HU matches between a bot and non-bot. In most cases, this involves two or three bots joining a particular match. Strangely enough, I have yet to witness a bot join and human vs. human match. As I observe more I'll have to see if that trend holds true.

Further it should be obvious why this is happening (and to the degree its happening) at WPEX. Initially, there are no names in hand histories. I believe Victor mentioned UB having a 6max table where a number of players had the exact same stats within a tenth of a decimal place. Obviously, that's not a concern for the bots at WPEX. Secondly, it's rake free poker. Bots can card-share, with limited (or none at all) explicit collusion, play straight up against one another, and not lose rake to the site.

Further, I really think that 90%+ of the bots on this site are run by the same person/network. My ideas about card-sharing sort of lend itself to this.

The real problem is proving this. Again there are no hand histories. And, as long as the people running these bots have the technology to avoid WPEX's detection methods it's a difficult chore.

___1___

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]


I was saying "cool" regarding the ability to raise a particular street with air and have the bots fold. The comment had nothing to do with you specifically.

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Fair enough. Sorry if I came across as defensive.

Thanks for sharing your observations. I wonder what - if anything - WPEX plans to do about this. It seems their measures to dissuade the HUD players to join has clearly cultivated an environment that allows the bots to thrive. I wonder which they feel is the bigger evil.

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

steve, apologies on sounding harsh. I play on there enough that if it was that easy, no one would be concerned about it [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oops yeah I do know your name cuz you told me but I don't remember playing with you. Looks like lots of mostly lurkers here play on the site but none of you are 20/40+ regulars unless you are twayankees and if you are I'm sorry but you are a LAG fish.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I sat with you a couple of times but why would I even want to play at the same talbe. I rather sit with someone else

edit: like it better now butstud?;p

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

does anyone else want to out the rest of the fish so I can stop making money k plz thx

Re: 10/20 6-max .. WPEX v Stars
 

Fish that have been mentioned so far in this thread:

twayankees
bugstud

That is all.

-DeathDonkey