How important is Math and SHHE?
 

Just to make sure this isn't just a retarded question asking how important it is to calculate pot odds etc. As you play higher stakes, metagame consideration and the players become much more important to the point where hands are played much more differently.

Now, how important does understanding Math become as you play in these stakes? What I mean is when you're playing do you calculate pot equity, fold equity, whether the play is mathematically +EV based on HUD statistics and recent/past history?

Maybe this is a foolish question that doesn't belong in this forum but I realized I rarely try to get the exact mathematical numbers when I'm playing. Based on tracker and HUD statistics you can make general assumption on certain mathematical considerations, but I never do the entire calculations in my head to figure things out. I'm sure very few are mathematical geniuses where they can multi table and figure out exact numbers in their head, or do you become that good as you become accustomed to high level play? Or do you make generalizations as well, and if so what kind of mathematical aspects of poker do you take into consideration as you play each hand?

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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Just to make sure this isn't just a retarded question asking how important it is to calculate pot odds etc. As you play higher stakes, metagame consideration and the players become much more important to the point where hands are played much more differently.

Now, how important does understanding Math become as you play in these stakes? What I mean is when you're playing do you calculate pot equity, fold equity, whether the play is mathematically +EV based on HUD statistics and recent/past history?

Maybe this is a foolish question that doesn't belong in this forum but I realized I rarely try to get the exact mathematical numbers when I'm playing. Based on tracker and HUD statistics you can make general assumption on certain mathematical considerations, but I never do the entire calculations in my head to figure things out. I'm sure very few are mathematical geniuses where they can multi table and figure out exact numbers in their head, or do you become that good as you become accustomed to high level play? Or do you make generalizations as well, and if so what kind of mathematical aspects of poker do you take into consideration as you play each hand?

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You only do calculations for a short time. Then you see the same situations over and over. The math generally indicates when it is a no brainer. When it is close you rely on other factors.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

i thought it was the opposite basically.. you see the same situations over and over and get a feel for them, so most are no brainers. when it's close you rely on math.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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i thought it was the opposite basically.. you see the same situations over and over and get a feel for them, so most are no brainers. when it's close you rely on math.

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yea this is spot on, u see every spot and kno how to tackle them. When its a tight spot u use math and rely on player reads etc to make the decisions

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

every decision i make is bc of math.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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every decision i make is bc of math.

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I thought Daryn's post to mean most decisions are so ingrained (ie the correct mathematical play) that stepping back and thinking about it (as in breaking down an EV calc) is fairly irrelevant since that play is "best". Although, stepping back and examining so-called routine plays often are where one finds leaks.

Also, just for repetition sake, I too make every decision based on math. (The purity of such decisions, such as when I tilt, can be called into question, though!)

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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i thought it was the opposite basically.. you see the same situations over and over and get a feel for them, so most are no brainers. when it's close you rely on math.

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yea this is spot on, u see every spot and kno how to tackle them. When its a tight spot u use math and rely on player reads etc to make the decisions

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Player reads, etc, is what I meant about when it is close that math plays less of a role. When two plays are close there is almost no difference in your expected win based on math alone. So you drop the math and go to hand reading, tells, etc. This is like when you have maybe five outs and the pot offers just enough to maybe justify it. In that case it makes no mathematical difference whether you call or fold. It is just about a break even play. You rely on other factors. It is when it is not a close call, like when the pot odds are 20% over what they need to be, that math rules. The math tells you that you must call. When the pot odds are only 2/3 what they need to be it is not close. Math rules, you have to fold. You don't need to rely on reads.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

You seem to be under the misguided assumtion that reading players, reading hands, and interpreting tells is not related to mathematics.

- Andrew

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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You seem to be under the misguided assumtion that reading players, reading hands, and interpreting tells is not related to mathematics.

- Andrew

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You're right. It is all math. I think the original poster was speaking only in terms of pot odds and such. But yes, math goes into most decisions.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

I hardly use math

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

To answer that question correctly and reconcile with all the responses here you're going to have to remember that both of the following are true:

1) It's nearly all math

2) Many good players have such strong mathematical intuition hard-wired into their brains that they're unaware of even using it

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

So are pot equity, fold equity, etc considered as simple math compared to math used in player reads and such? I mentioned how I wasn't talking about pot odds at the beginning of the post, but seeing as emerson said I was only asking for the pot odds etc, do you put those (pot odds, EV, fold equity) in the same criteria in terms of the amount of math used?

When you guys mention that the math becomes so simple due to the fact that you've been through the same situation over and over again. Does that mean you understand the math because you know which play is correct based on experience and you don't even need to do exact calculations to figure it out? Or the calculations becomes easier and faster because you've done it so many times? I'm guessing it's both but I was curious because I'm having a difficult time doing exact calculations correctly in my head when I'm playing, especially when I'm multi tabling. Is there a way to improve on this or is this something that has to do with long years of exp?

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

I suspect that in the next five to ten years, the players who become the "very best" at limit hold em will have incorporated the ideas of game theory into their play beyond what is done now.

In fact, I have a few ideas in this regard that would probably take nothing more than a dozen or two hours of calculations and simulations that would potentially increase my ability to play against other tough opponents, but so far I have been lazy and just continue to look for weak games that I can beat even while playing badly on a not infrequent basis.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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So are pot equity, fold equity, etc considered as simple math compared to math used in player reads and such? I mentioned how I wasn't talking about pot odds at the beginning of the post,

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Read your first post in the thread again. You ask how important it is to calculate pot odds, etc.

This is what lead to a minor disagreement. What I meant to say is that you use math, but you don't "do" math in these situations. When I flop an inside straight draw with an ace overcard, I "know" how many bets have to be in the pot for me to make a call. I know what size pot I need to see to continue with a backdoor flush draw and two overcards, etc. I don't calculate this out at the table. I am not doing math. But I am making decisions based on math.

There are lots of times you have to "do" math at the table and calculate some things. But most situaitons come up again and again and you simply remember. When it is close you rely on other information, reads, etc.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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I hardly use math

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but you understand the math behind your actions and why you make certain plays

Nobody sits there with a calculator and has their whole game rely on math. That's just for tv people to say. As a "math guy" i HATE when people say this.

It's an important part of the game that you get out of the way in like the first 20 minutes you try and learn poker.

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

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So are pot equity, fold equity, etc considered as simple math compared to math used in player reads and such? I mentioned how I wasn't talking about pot odds at the beginning of the post,

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Read your first post in the thread again. You ask how important it is to calculate pot odds, etc.

This is what lead to a minor disagreement. What I meant to say is that you use math, but you don't "do" math in these situations. When I flop an inside straight draw with an ace overcard, I "know" how many bets have to be in the pot for me to make a call. I know what size pot I need to see to continue with a backdoor flush draw and two overcards, etc. I don't calculate this out at the table. I am not doing math. But I am making decisions based on math.

There are lots of times you have to "do" math at the table and calculate some things. But most situaitons come up again and again and you simply remember. When it is close you rely on other information, reads, etc.

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Umm in my first post (first sentence actually)I mentioned at the beginning this was not a question asking about pot odds and I was asking in terms of pot equity, fold equity, whether certain plays are +EV. I thoguht I made that clear in the second paragraph.. Did I really phrase my question that badly or is this some kind of sarcasm?

Re: How important is Math and SHHE?
 

Alright, I see. You start by saying, "just to make sure this isn't" and then go on to say...etc.

I read the intent of your question incorrectly.

Anyone doing well at higher stakes does one of three things: they either make lots of calculations, they have a huge amount of memorized odds and such for frequently occuring situations, or they have some internal algorithm (like a savant) and don't even realize they are doing much math.