Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

Major live tournament, $500 buy-in, 400 players, second day about 60 players remain. I have roughly 110k in chips, average is about 65k, UTG has me covered with about 125k and UTG+1 has about 50k. Blinds are 2k-4k-200a and UTG raises to 12k, UTG+1 smooth calls, I am next to act with 10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. What's my line here? UTG is a great tournament player and I have played against him many times, give him credit for a hand, but also know he could make this raise with nothing. UTG+1 is a really tricky player, greast post-flop player, took a couble hard beats that lowered his stack, but still loves to see flops. Is this the perfect time for a squeeze? Can I smooth call here? Is it possible for me to lay this down?

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

with that much action left behind you I fold....if you call you will have to fold or push to a reraise behind you especially if UTG or UTG+1 comes over the top of it.

If you re-raise here you have to make it around 40k which is the wrong play with all the action behind you and your chips stack relative to the tourney.

SO I fold.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

I think you can lay this down. You have a great player who you respect making a standard UTG raise on a stack larger than yours, and then a very tricky crafty player who flat-calls off 20% of his stack. You're also acting 3rd here at what is presumably close to a full ring table, so there's a lot of potential action behind you too.

I lay this one down. Probably lay down JJ too, but QQ would start to get interesting.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

ummmm... why isn't anyone recommending for him to call?

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

I'M not laying down tens here.
I also don't play many live events and I play aggressively.
Whether I flat call or come over the top largely depends on what I think UTG's range is for raising and what he would call with.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'M not laying down tens here.
I also don't play many live events and I play aggressively.
Whether I flat call or come over the top largely depends on what I think UTG's range is for raising and what he would call with.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would probably flat call. I don't think you can reraise. Any reraise pot commits you and it is way to dangerous to make an overbet push from 3rd position at an UTG raiser and 2nd position caller with TT.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

It's very situational.

I like the squeeze play, but its risky because you are behind a tight range for UTG which is most likely. He needs to fold this 1/2 the time for this to be profitable ~(AK--, JJ--).

I don't like a call because:
I doubt you can get another 45K (on avg) of someone elses money to justify the implied odds.
You expose yourself to a huge squeeze play from another player that you don't want to call
The hand will play badly ATF even with position.



It's probably safest just to fold.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

I'd kind of like to hear a justification for why you should call a raise and a flatcall of that raise with 6-7 players left to act behind you holding TT. What sort of boards, other than an obvious set, will you feel comfortable playing? What do you do if the other 2 are betting hard on an all undercard flop?

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's very situational.

I like the squeeze play, but its risky because you are behind a tight range for UTG which is most likely. He needs to fold this 1/2 the time for this to be profitable ~(AK--, JJ--).

I don't like a call because:
I doubt you can get another 45K (on avg) of someone elses money to justify the implied odds.
You expose yourself to a huge squeeze play from another player that you don't want to call
The hand will play badly ATF even with position.



It's probably safest just to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't make a squeeze play here. You are essentially committing all your chips. If you raise to 40K, you can't fold to a third raise.

Isn't there way too much of a chance that the UTG raiser or 2nd position caller has TT dominated? There is also about a 10% chance that one of the players left to act has you dominated (4/221 * 7 = 28/221; since sometimes 2 players have JJ-AA and it may be 9-handed, we;ll say 10%).

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

You are allowed to fold whenever the action is on you.

The implication was UTG+1 was light.

JJ is not calling a raise to 45K, probably.

The hand is no good against further action.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are allowed to fold whenever the action is on you.

The implication was UTG+1 was light.

JJ is not calling a raise to 45K, probably.

The hand is no good against further action.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise to 45K and someone who has you covered puts you allin. You are calling 65K to win 175K, so you are 2.7-1 pot odds. How can you say the hand is no good? Isn't there enough chance you are not dominated to call? You are allowed to fold, but why put yourself in position to fold TT with 2.7-1 pot odds. Sklansky talks in TPFAP about not raising with TT or AQs when a reraise would put you in a difficult situation.

UTG raiser could easily have JJ-AA. How do you say 2nd position caller is light? A 2nd position caller of an UTG raise probably has a strong enough hand to raise himself if UTG didn't raise. There is some possibility 2nd position could have AA also. Plus you have most of the table to act.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are allowed to fold whenever the action is on you.

The implication was UTG+1 was light.

JJ is not calling a raise to 45K, probably.

The hand is no good against further action.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise to 45K and someone who has you covered puts you allin. You are calling 65K to win 175K, so you are 2.7-1 pot odds. How can you say the hand is no good? Isn't there enough chance you are not dominated to call? You are allowed to fold, but why put yourself in position to fold TT with 2.7-1 pot odds. Sklansky talks in TPFAP about not raising with TT or AQs when a reraise would put you in a difficult situation.

UTG raiser could easily have JJ-AA. How do you say 2nd position caller is light? A 2nd position caller of an UTG raise probably has a strong enough hand to raise himself if UTG didn't raise. There is some possibility 2nd position could have AA also. Plus you have most of the table to act.

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Not sure but it sounds like you are advocating raising and plaaninga call to a push pre flop. I understand the strategy but don't agree for two reasons:

1. Your planning to get the right pot odds to call as a 2.7-1 dog. You are on day two of a major tourney facing at least one solid player. I think you can pick a better spot with the chip stack. You have zero chips invested at this point with what looks like a marginal hand to a UTG raise and a smooth call and 7 players left to act

2. If your reraise gets flat called by one or more stacks (lot of action behind you) there are not too many boards you are going to like. The pot will be so big that pushing post flop no matter what might be the only way to win and you may get called as a big dog.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You are allowed to fold whenever the action is on you.

The implication was UTG+1 was light.

JJ is not calling a raise to 45K, probably.

The hand is no good against further action.

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise to 45K and someone who has you covered puts you allin. You are calling 65K to win 175K, so you are 2.7-1 pot odds. How can you say the hand is no good? Isn't there enough chance you are not dominated to call? You are allowed to fold, but why put yourself in position to fold TT with 2.7-1 pot odds. Sklansky talks in TPFAP about not raising with TT or AQs when a reraise would put you in a difficult situation.

UTG raiser could easily have JJ-AA. How do you say 2nd position caller is light? A 2nd position caller of an UTG raise probably has a strong enough hand to raise himself if UTG didn't raise. There is some possibility 2nd position could have AA also. Plus you have most of the table to act.

[/ QUOTE ]


Not sure but it sounds like you are advocating raising and plaaninga call to a push pre flop. I understand the strategy but don't agree for two reasons:

1. Your planning to get the right pot odds to call as a 2.7-1 dog. You are on day two of a major tourney facing at least one solid player. I think you can pick a better spot with the chip stack. You have zero chips invested at this point with what looks like a marginal hand to a UTG raise and a smooth call and 7 players left to act

2. If your reraise gets flat called by one or more stacks (lot of action behind you) there are not too many boards you are going to like. The pot will be so big that pushing post flop no matter what might be the only way to win and you may get called as a big dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm saying you can't reraise in this situation. You have to call or fold.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

Reraising is awful. You're very often behind, have little FE vs. UTG+1 and have plenty of players still to act.

I'm not sure why no one's terrified of the UTG+1 call. A good player's range here is tiny. Like AA-KK tiny. What else would a good player call 1/4 of his stack with in this spot? Who cares if he likes to see flops, if he's good he can't have hands like 66-88, AK/AQ here. Also almost certainly not JJ-99 and probably not QQ.

So if I call, it's for set value only. I don't think you quite have the implied odds (especially considering all the players still to act), so I reluctantly fold. Calling might be close, but if I call I put in no more chips unless I flop a set, or an overpair and it's checked to me.

Steve

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Reraising is awful. You're very often behind, have little FE vs. UTG+1 and have plenty of players still to act.

I'm not sure why no one's terrified of the UTG+1 call. A good player's range here is tiny. Like AA-KK tiny. What else would a good player call 1/4 of his stack with in this spot? Who cares if he likes to see flops, if he's good he can't have hands like 66-88, AK/AQ here. Also almost certainly not JJ-99 and probably not QQ.

So if I call, it's for set value only. I don't think you quite have the implied odds (especially considering all the players still to act), so I reluctantly fold. Calling might be close, but if I call I put in no more chips unless I flop a set, or an overpair and it's checked to me.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG+1's flat call is strange. It looks like aces, but why wouldn't he push with a big pair, figuring UTG would have odds to call. The flat call looks so suspsicious. Maybe he figures someone won't notice and try a queeze play. I am not sure that UTG+1 has a big pair, but that is a possibility. In fact I would be a little worried about aces anyway with a UTG+1 flat caller.

In any case the early position action makes TT look pretty weak.

Re: Major live tourny...pocket 10\'s dilemma
 

Not only is the heat coming from way up front where hands typically tend to be stronger but you are also up front. There are still 6-7 people to act so you don't guarantee yourself a flop. You have an above average stack and are looking to tangle with a modest holding. This would be much different obviously if you were the one raising. But you ain't. Also the "really tricky UTG+1" player just smooth called 20% of his stack. Scary. Even if you had the biggest PP here, you can be sure that any A-J will beat you. Dump.

On a side note if you were on the CO or Button that I probably call for set value here.