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-   -   Awful WSOP news from PokerStars (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=394869)

davebreal 05-03-2007 06:42 PM

Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
summary: now we will have to pay full taxes on our WSOP entries, as we are essentially "buying" an entry via PokerStars. Also, our hotels will be entirely up to us.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand there is nothing PokerStars can do about this situation,
however now we the players are getting a much worse value for our
FPPs. Is this conversion fair to us?

Now we are also all going to get taxed directly on the $10,000
entrance fee, which will be coming directly out of our pockets. Since
gambling income in the US is taxed at approximately 40%, we will now
actually be paying $14,000 individually to play a $10,000 event?

Have the mathematics of this situation been fully reviewed by
PokerStars Management?
_____________________________
original email from PS
____________________________



On 5/3/07, WSOP at PokerStars <[email protected]> wrote:
> Dear PokerStars Supernova Player davebreal,
>
> First and foremost, congratulations on winning a seat to the 2007 World Series of Poker* on PokerStars! Simply winning your buy-in is a tremendous accomplishment. This e-mail contains very important information regarding World Series buy-in procedures. Please read this e-mail carefully.
>
> PokerStars staff members have worked tirelessly for several months in an attempt to directly buy-in PokerStars' World Series qualifiers to the Main Event. Unfortunately, Harrah's policy refuses third-party registrations. With that in mind, by tomorrow morning we will deposit your $10,000 buy-in into your PokerStars account.
>
> When you wish to cash out the $10,000 please email [email protected]. We have set up this email specifically to expedite the cash out requests for all World Series qualifiers.
>
> With regards to the buy-in here are your options:
>
> 1. Pre-register for the WSOP* Main Event
>
> - Go to http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/registration/2007/
> - Click on Pre-register now for the 2007 World Series of Poker!
> - Fill in your player information and tick Event 55
> - Tick which day you prefer to start
> - Tick the method of payment you want to use for the deposit of the buy-in amount
> - After completing the pre-registration form, you will be contacted directly by Harrah's.
>
> 2. Register directly at the Rio
>
> - Go to the Rio Conference Center where the World Series Events are taking place
> - Go to the Cashier with proof of ID and $10,000 cash for the buy-in
>
> While it was our intention to arrange hotel accommodations for all qualifiers as we have in the past, we are now unable to handle these arrangements. However, we will still pay you the $1,000 in lieu of accommodation if you wear PokerStars clothing. We will send you an email nearer the time with instructions on how to pick up your player bag, where after the $1,000 towards accommodation will be deposited in your PokerStars account. If you're still playing in the main event on July 11th, we'll deposit another $1,000 towards your additional expenses.
>
> We are pleased to inform you however, that we have secured a limited number of rooms at Treasure Island exclusively for our Supernova members. Supernovas can use Frequent Player Points to purchase their hotel room at Treasure Island until the the supply lasts. If you wish to do so please email us at [email protected].
>
> Harrah's is also offering special room rates to all players that pre-register for the World Series Events. You'll get special pre-entrant rates starting at $85 per night. When you officially register and pay your entry fee for the Main Event, the hotel will automatically convert your rate to the exclusive entrant rate. These pre-entrant rates are available at Bally's Las Vegas, Caesars Palace, Flamingo Las Vegas, Harrah's Las Vegas, Paris Las Vegas, and Rio All-Suite Hotel & Casino. For more details please go to http://www.worldseriesofpoker.com/reservations/
>
> In addition, we have added a page on our website with Las Vegas hotel details at http://www.pokerstars.com/wsop/hotels/ to help you make accommodation arrangements.
>
> While we recognize these changes might inconvenience you, there is simply nothing we can do to remedy the situation. It is now your responsibility to buy-in for the Main Event and arrange for your own travel and accommodations. All of us at PokerStars sincerely regret any inconvenience that this may cause.
>
> Thank you for your understanding and your continued loyalty to PokerStars.
>
> If you have any questions or problems, please do not hesitate to contact us at [email protected]
>
> Sincerely,
> The PokerStars WSOP* Team
>
> * World Series of Poker and WSOP are trademarks of Harrah's License Company, LLC ("Harrah's"). Harrah's does not sponsor or endorse, and is not associated or affiliated with, PokerStars or its products, services, promotions or tournaments.

[/ QUOTE ]

DrSavage 05-03-2007 06:47 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
I really don't think this changes the tax situation in any way, if you won a satellite you should pay taxes on that 10k win and then deduct it as a loss for entering the WSOP, same way as it always was. You can deduct the 1k for accommodations and such too if you're filing as a pro i believe.

adanthar 05-03-2007 06:48 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think this changes the tax situation in any way, if you won a satellite you should pay taxes on that 10k win and then deduct it as a loss for entering the WSOP, same way as it always was. You can deduct the 1k for accommodations and such too if you're filing as a pro i believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

absolutely.

FlyWf 05-03-2007 06:50 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
Also it seems like they are giving cash in lieu of hotel rooms, which is pretty much a fantastic thing.

summary: Now slightly harder to evade taxes on WSOP entries.

davebreal 05-03-2007 06:51 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think this changes the tax situation in any way, if you won a satellite you should pay taxes on that 10k win and then deduct it as a loss for entering the WSOP, same way as it always was. You can deduct the 1k for accommodations and such too if you're filing as a pro i believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you pay taxes on your online poker store purchases???

Do you honestly think that making these deductions are going to offset the tax costs to us? Shouldn't we just be buying our own entries out of our own pockets now to avoid paying the taxes on this $10,000 "income credit" to our PokerStars accounts?

MicroBob 05-03-2007 06:52 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
dr savage - i agree.

davebreal 05-03-2007 06:52 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also it seems like they are giving cash in lieu of hotel rooms, which is pretty much a fantastic thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi, I'm Earth.

PokerStars has been offering $1,000 in lieu of accomodations for years now.

Thanks.

kyleb 05-03-2007 06:53 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really don't think this changes the tax situation in any way, if you won a satellite you should pay taxes on that 10k win and then deduct it as a loss for entering the WSOP, same way as it always was. You can deduct the 1k for accommodations and such too if you're filing as a pro i believe.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you pay taxes on your online poker store purchases???

Do you honestly think that making these deductions are going to offset the tax costs to us? Shouldn't we just be buying our own entries out of our own pockets now to avoid paying the taxes on this $10,000 "income credit" to our PokerStars accounts?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not whether or not you DO it, but it's whether or not you SHOULD.

And you should have been paying taxes.

DrSavage 05-03-2007 06:54 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]


Do you pay taxes on your online poker store purchases???


[/ QUOTE ]

You are supposed to, yes.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you honestly think that making these deductions are going to offset the tax costs to us?


[/ QUOTE ]

Somewhat. I didn't make those laws.

davebreal 05-03-2007 06:55 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
It's not whether or not you DO it, but it's whether or not you SHOULD.

And you should have been paying taxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, nobody is getting the point... million dollar question:
Would you rather "buy" $10,000 from the FPP store, or would you rather write a $10,000 check from your personal account for WSOP entrance.

kyleb 05-03-2007 06:55 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's not whether or not you DO it, but it's whether or not you SHOULD.

And you should have been paying taxes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, nobody is getting the point... million dollar question:
Would you rather "buy" $10,000 from the FPP store, or would you rather write a $10,000 check from your personal account for WSOP entrance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, what else are you going to do with the FPPs that you're supposed to pay taxes on?

augie_ 05-03-2007 06:56 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
this sounds great to me. now if i win a seat i dont have to play!!! HOLLER

2461Badugi 05-03-2007 06:58 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]

Do you pay taxes on your online poker store purchases???


[/ QUOTE ]

Were you intending to not claim the $10k entry as income, but then claim it as a loss when you bust out? That's the only way this matters at all tax-wise. Any other way it's a wash.

Thremp 05-03-2007 07:10 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
dave,

Just keep cheating your taxes and stop complaining.

Nick-Zack 05-03-2007 08:03 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
this sounds great to me. now if i win a seat i dont have to play!!! HOLLER

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding - this seems awesome to me.

wrschultz 05-03-2007 08:08 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
Dave, you aren't realizing that you can "write off" the 10k loss at the main event also... For most people, there is obviously no reason to pay taxes because they win the 10k seat and then lose the 10k event..

ZBTHorton 05-03-2007 08:14 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
This is bad news.

It has nothing to do with taxes though...lol.

ryanghall 05-03-2007 08:21 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
So what hotel is everyone going to be staying at? Are any Novas going to take up stars on this Treasure Island offer? Is Treasure Island even any good? Why there? If I don't, how much should I expect to pay. I've never been to Vegas and I've never booked a hotel anywhere in my life so I'm stressing already. Any ideas/help would be great.

Ryan

FatalError 05-03-2007 08:35 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
this is going to mean that about 500-1000 fish are going to just stay home and keep their cashola

teddyFBI 05-03-2007 08:49 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
this is going to mean that about 500-1000 fish are going to just stay home and keep their cashola

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously - how did this thread make it 20 posts before someone acknowledged the real reason we (anyone who was planning on playing the ME) are getting cornholed on this one?

Now, everyone who won a "seat" is instead just gonna have an extra $10K in their pocket. Any guesses on what percentage of those people are now gonna buy into the ME of their own volition? I'm going to throw out an over/under of 20% and I'll take the 'under' by a country mile.

It will be interesting to see how other sites handle this...PokerStars presumably looked far and wide for workarounds to still get their "qualifiers" into the ME...and they came up empty. And remember, more than any other site out there, Stars has really hitched their wagon to the WSOP ME ...so you got to figure they had the greatest vested interest in finding a solution...and they still whiffed.

At the risk of again re-hashing an old question, why would Harrah's adopt this policy prohibiting 3rd-party registrations when it's going to cost them MINIMUM 1,000 buy-ins (aka $10M)...granted that's a drop in the hat for a corp like Harrah's, but they'll be hit even harder with the lost publicity b/c of a smaller field. Seems like a real bonehead move to me. Especially when it doesn't appear that they shouldn't have any concerns about legal liability from merely allowing a 3rd party to pay an entrant's fee.

FatalError 05-03-2007 08:54 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
they are only out the juice

remember, at least european sites will still be allowed to register their fishy european players

teddyFBI 05-03-2007 09:02 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
remember, at least european sites will still be allowed to register their fishy european players

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you get that from? Stars' email says:
"Unfortunately, Harrah's policy refuses third-party registrations."

FatalError 05-03-2007 09:15 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
the last half of that sentance is "from companies that service US customers"

ddubois 05-03-2007 09:15 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
"Unfortunately, Harrah's policy refuses third-party registrations."

[/ QUOTE ]
There should be a "... form sites that serve US customers" clause on there, if what my recollection of what I heard on the PokerEdge podcast interview with Jeffery Pollack is accurate.

peterchi 05-03-2007 09:20 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
This may be stupid, but it seems like a reasonable solution would be to make you come to Vegas, go to their hospitality suite at the Rio during the WSOP and get lammers from them there, instead of just giving you $10k into your account.

Does anyone know why this can't be done?

teddyFBI 05-03-2007 09:20 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
the last half of that sentance is "from companies that service US customers"

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean?
Where's the other half of the sentence then?
Not in the email i got...

JacJacAtk 05-03-2007 09:20 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
If I had to guess, Harrah's management is either insane (not entirely impossible based on past history) or they think they're at significant risk legally for dealing with the online sites directly (or semi-directly, even). The DOJ could certainly have threatened them, for instance.

That said, it will be interesting to see if this only applies to US players (or sites still catering to them). If Party and everyone else can't register people directly either, I can't see the ME field making it to even a quarter of last year's levels.

sigurrostyp 05-03-2007 09:22 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
Is this just for American players who have qualified at Pokerstars or all players??

teddyFBI 05-03-2007 09:22 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
This may be stupid, but it seems like a reasonable solution would be to make you come to Vegas, go to their hospitality suite at the Rio during the WSOP and get lammers from them there, instead of just giving you $10k into your account.

Does anyone know why this can't be done?

[/ QUOTE ]

u've got to assume Stars searched far and wide for a solution...we could speculate about options, but i'm sure we're not uncovering anything they didn't already think of.

JacJacAtk 05-03-2007 09:35 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
I was told by a source I trust to have some knowledge of the situation that buying and distributing lammers was the original plan. I haven't heard anything from him about problems with that plan, though it wouldn't blow my mind if getting the money into the US to do it, or even being able to get an appropriate quantity of lammers (do they just sell these to people directly, I've only seen them as prizes in the live sats at the Rio) was difficult/impossible to arrange.

LotsOfOuts69 05-03-2007 09:49 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
So what hotel is everyone going to be staying at? Are any Novas going to take up stars on this Treasure Island offer? Is Treasure Island even any good? Why there? If I don't, how much should I expect to pay. I've never been to Vegas and I've never booked a hotel anywhere in my life so I'm stressing already. Any ideas/help would be great.

Ryan

[/ QUOTE ]

Treasure Island is *OK*, I mean its a nice hotel, compared to Hotels around the U.S., but as for Vegas strip hotels, its one of the lower budget ones. The pool blows IMO. Obviously Stars is not gonna put you up in the super swanky joints on their own dime.

I dont think there is a poker room there, but its right next to the Wynn, 5 min walk for some side action. However, if you want to get to the MGM/Bellagio area you need a cab unless you like walking for miles in 110 degree heat.

And the Rio is off the strip so no matter where you stay, you'll have to cab it there. PS had a shuttle bus from TI to the Rio every year for their players, not sure if thats still available this year.

SteelWheel 05-03-2007 09:50 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
I got my notice from PokerStars also, and already got the money in my account. I'm very disappointed. I think the numbers will be way down this year.

I'm sure that the legal advice that Harrah's received is the reason for this unfortunate development. As I've stated in several of my other posts, as of a few months ago the unofficial word that I had from those in a position to know, was that Harrah's was going to do its best to look the other way with respect to third party buy-ins from online sites.

If 'Stars (the granddaddy of online WSOP qualifiers) was unable to work something out on this score, I'm sure it's not for lack of effort on its part.

Just as everyone else, I'm now trying to work out my own best response. I'm going to Vegas for the whole WSOP, for sure-- but I'm mostly a cash game player, although I've played in the ME the last few years, courtesy of the double shootout qualifiers on 'Stars. Part of the attraction of playing in the main event the last few years was the overlay offered by all the online donkey qualifiers (of course, I don't put myself in the category of online donkey qualifier.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ). If a good chunk of these people decide to pocket the $10K rather than play, my own interest in playing the ME goes down as well. I can always stick to ring games.

In all likelihood, I'll go to Vegas and do the ring game thing for a few weeks, and try to get some feel for how big the ME field will be, and judge from there.

But all of this is a far cry from the old days of having 'Stars just buy me in and being automagically registered. This just plain sucks, no two ways about it...

TimWillTell 05-03-2007 10:01 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
This years WSOP is not even going to have half the number of players of last year.
That means way less media attention.
I'm trying to figure out Harrah's... Whats their game?
They look like complete idiots, so there must be something I'm overlooking.

teddyFBI 05-03-2007 10:05 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the last half of that sentance is "from companies that service US customers"

[/ QUOTE ]

What do you mean?
Where's the other half of the sentence then?
Not in the email i got...

[/ QUOTE ]

bump b/c this is an important Q

cardcounter0 05-03-2007 10:09 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
[ QUOTE ]
I'm trying to figure out Harrah's... Whats their game?
They look like complete idiots, so there must be something I'm overlooking.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think maybe in a few years the only way to qualify for the ME online will be at the Harrahs dot com poker site.
Of course, them being complete idiots is always a good option also.

Ditch Digger 05-03-2007 10:20 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
Wow, this really sucks. As of now Aids > Harrahs.

Black winter day 05-03-2007 10:27 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
I know, i won't spend any money on 10k donkament, so if i win an entry - i'll keep the cash.
Shame though, i wanted to play, but if i know, i am getting cash instead - i won't have the heart to spend it on one, even huge, donkament.

Sound stupid, but i played to win the entry, not the cash...

Elvis57 05-03-2007 10:56 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
Do any of you read the WSOP site? The WSOP added new rules this year. One was no online site that allowed US players to play could not reg. there players for the WSOP. Second no online site that allows US players will be allow to wear there site logo at the WSOP.

BlueBear 05-03-2007 11:02 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
This is important news.

There are two related consequences that has not been addressed.

1) What happens to the VIP $12,000 WSOP package? Will it be removed from the VIP store? What about players who have already used this?

2) For those players going for Supernova Elite, will the WSOP option be removed too?

OnlinePro 05-03-2007 11:19 PM

Re: Awful WSOP news from PokerStars
 
keeps getting worse and worse.


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