200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

I've been struggling lately at the 30/60 and 50/100 LHE games so I decided to take a night off and watch some of the bigger games, when this hand came up.........

PokerStars Game #9722455118: Hold'em Limit ($200/$400) - 2007/05/02 - 22:46:13 (ET)
Table 'Industria IV' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 3: AlexSem ($15411 in chips)
Seat 5: tiger76 ($11380 in chips)
Seat 6: DonkofDonks ($5086 in chips)
AlexSem: posts small blind $100
tiger76: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
DonkofDonks: raises $200 to $400
AlexSem: raises $200 to $600
tiger76: folds
DonkofDonks: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [5s 8d 3h]
AlexSem: bets $200
DonkofDonks: calls $200
*** TURN *** [5s 8d 3h] [Jd]
AlexSem: bets $400
DonkofDonks: raises $400 to $800
AlexSem: calls $400
*** RIVER *** [5s 8d 3h Jd] [Ks]
AlexSem: checks
DonkofDonks: bets $400
AlexSem: raises $400 to $800
DonkofDonks: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AlexSem: shows [Kd 9c] (a pair of Kings)
DonkofDonks: mucks hand
AlexSem collected $4998 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5000 | Rake $2
Board [5s 8d 3h Jd Ks]
Seat 3: AlexSem (small blind) showed [Kd 9c] and won ($4998) with a pair of Kings
Seat 5: tiger76 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: DonkofDonks (button) mucked


I'm not in any way calling AlexSem out on this hand b/c I know he is a solid winning LHE player, but I am just trying understand the thought process on calling the turn raise...what range did you have your opponent on were you calling river if you didn't spike...ext

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

I would say alot of the way this hand played out would have to be a result of previous hands. It hard to say what he was thinking when just viewing one hand ya know.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

ya, thats why i posted it here b/c i know alex reads this forum and was hoping for a response from him

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

seems like a pretty bad call unless Alex has a certain read that tells him that donk's turn raise is highly indicative of a draw

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

Sure, I'll try to explain his rationale since this seems pretty standard to me. I've played many hands with Alex, but never with DoD, and I don't know what the tableflow (past/recent history) of this table, but I doubt it matters.

It's 3 handed - and DoD raised and called a sb 3 bet - that pretty much leaves his hand range at *anything* right about now (or close to it). If I was Alex, I'd most definitely call turn (that and I'm a calling station) because the turn raise could have been anything from [range of hands of villian]:

1) Pure Bluff of any two cards putting a move
2) Picked up diamond draw from turn.
3) Picked up straight draw of any sort from turn (9T, QT, 69, etc)
4) Delayed bluff of any sort of draw from the flop (24, 26, etc)
5) A pair
6) Something better than a pair. Like two pair, pair+st8 draw, etc.

Given this range, against #6 Alex is drawing slim/dead, against #5 he likely has 3 outs, and against 1-4 he's either already winning or have 6 outs.

It's just not good to fold at the point of the turn raise, and also it's an easy check raise if he hits the river (and no, don't fold to a 3 bet).

Yes, call river on practically anything except maybe 6d, but even then I'd still call (not saying I'm right, just explaining rationale). If part of the rationale of calling turn is the guy may be on the draw, then you better darn call the river if the draw missed.

(or, Alex called cuz HE FELT LIKE IT. That's a perfectly reasonable explanation too).

~andy

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

he has a bad mutha. don't never fold no bad mutha.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

pretty much everyone who plays this high is just some overaggro maniac donk who ran hot

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

Andy explained it pretty well.

Without going into too much detail: the chances of Donk having the J are not nearly as high as youd think. So imagine the turn is an indifferent card - do you call the raise?

Do I call that river? It depends, in a lot of cases no I dont because I think he has a pair pretty often, but Id say 35% of the time or so Id call the river with my K high.

Donk was also tilting pretty badly and metagame wise, it was definitely the right decision and the more I think of it, the more I think I should call it down since he raised a lot of turns and I was folding my K and A highs left and right.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

Thanks for the analysis, Alex. I have wondered about great players think processes in short handed LHE,Very interesting indeed.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

pokerbob's explaination is infinelty better than andys

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

i like victor's explanation

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
pretty much everyone who plays this high is just some overaggro maniac donk who ran hot

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmmm....don't you play high limit?

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pretty much everyone who plays this high is just some overaggro maniac donk who ran hot

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmmm....don't you play high limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

thats why he said "pretty much" [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Barron

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not in any way calling AlexSem out on this hand b/c I know he is a solid winning LHE player,

[/ QUOTE ]


I needed a good laugh, thanks!

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

yea i was thinking the same, u see more moves put on in these higher games and sometimes have to call down these higher cards, lower games like 30/60 people dont make as many crazy plays

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not in any way calling AlexSem out on this hand b/c I know he is a solid winning LHE player,

[/ QUOTE ]


I needed a good laugh, thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]


Does this post literally support trolling? Where are the mods I wonder...

High stakes is dead wheras Medium is flourishing, why? Because Prvt Joker moderates and provides content whereas for every quality post in here, ther's 5 trolls running around with 1 liners...

Example: 15 replies to this thread - good initial post, Andy's response, my response. All the rest is a trollfest that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.


Going to do anything about it whoever moderates this or please continue ignoring blatant insults.


For the record: kahntrutahn who are you? Your nick on stars? Unless you're a regular at 2/4. I'll arrange to PAY you 50$/hour, or with Hoss and Schneids' or some others' help even 100$/hour, to sit and play 500 hours with us with me being directly on your left.

Deal? If not how much is your word really worth that you come in talking trash about my results?

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
pretty much everyone who plays this high is just some overaggro maniac donk who ran hot

[/ QUOTE ]

ummmmm....don't you play high limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

on average i play 1/4 of these stakes so no i dont even come close to qualifying as a high stakes player.

also, why does everyone rip on alexsem? does he really suck? and if he does how has he been playing the highest games for so long?

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
and if he does how has he been playing the highest games for so long?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars Game #9733289395: Hold'em Limit ($200/$400) - 2007/05/03 - 18:07:13 (ET)
Table 'Theresia II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Hoss_TBF ($9975 in chips)
Seat 4: AlexSem ($10165 in chips)
Seat 5: pokkermon ($10989 in chips)
Seat 6: tiger76 ($22858 in chips)
pokkermon: posts small blind $100
tiger76: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlexSem [Tc Qd]
Hoss_TBF: folds
AlexSem: raises $200 to $400
pokkermon: folds
tiger76: raises $200 to $600
AlexSem: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Th Td Qs]
tiger76: bets $200
AlexSem: raises $200 to $400
tiger76: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Th Td Qs] [3c]
tiger76: checks
AlexSem: checks
*** RIVER *** [Th Td Qs 3c] [9c]
tiger76: bets $400
AlexSem: raises $400 to $800
tiger76: raises $400 to $1200
AlexSem: raises $400 to $1600
Betting is capped
tiger76: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AlexSem: shows [Tc Qd] (a full house, Tens full of Queens)
tiger76: mucks hand
AlexSem collected $5295 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5300 | Rake $5
Board [Th Td Qs 3c 9c]
Seat 2: Hoss_TBF folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AlexSem (button) showed [Tc Qd] and won ($5295) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Seat 5: pokkermon (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: tiger76 (big blind) mucked [Jh Kh]

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and if he does how has he been playing the highest games for so long?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars Game #9733289395: Hold'em Limit ($200/$400) - 2007/05/03 - 18:07:13 (ET)
Table 'Theresia II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Hoss_TBF ($9975 in chips)
Seat 4: AlexSem ($10165 in chips)
Seat 5: pokkermon ($10989 in chips)
Seat 6: tiger76 ($22858 in chips)
pokkermon: posts small blind $100
tiger76: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlexSem [Tc Qd]
Hoss_TBF: folds
AlexSem: raises $200 to $400
pokkermon: folds
tiger76: raises $200 to $600
AlexSem: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Th Td Qs]
tiger76: bets $200
AlexSem: raises $200 to $400
tiger76: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Th Td Qs] [3c]
tiger76: checks
AlexSem: checks
*** RIVER *** [Th Td Qs 3c] [9c]
tiger76: bets $400
AlexSem: raises $400 to $800
tiger76: raises $400 to $1200
AlexSem: raises $400 to $1600
Betting is capped
tiger76: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AlexSem: shows [Tc Qd] (a full house, Tens full of Queens)
tiger76: mucks hand
AlexSem collected $5295 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5300 | Rake $5
Board [Th Td Qs 3c 9c]
Seat 2: Hoss_TBF folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AlexSem (button) showed [Tc Qd] and won ($5295) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Seat 5: pokkermon (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: tiger76 (big blind) mucked [Jh Kh]

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed a bet.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not in any way calling AlexSem out on this hand b/c I know he is a solid winning LHE player,

[/ QUOTE ]


I needed a good laugh, thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]


Does this post literally support trolling? Where are the mods I wonder...


[/ QUOTE ]


While his post was definitely not constructive, it doesn't warrent moderation in my oppinion.



[ QUOTE ]

High stakes is dead wheras Medium is flourishing, why? Because Prvt Joker moderates and provides content whereas for every quality post in here, ther's 5 trolls running around with 1 liners...


[/ QUOTE ]



Private joker is a good moderator. It is not a moderator's DUTY to provide content though.



[ QUOTE ]

Example: 15 replies to this thread - good initial post, Andy's response, my response. All the rest is a trollfest that adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.


[/ QUOTE ]



While not optimal, pretty standard on a public internet message board. It would be silly to delete every post that a moderator didn't feel worthwhile, don't you agree?



[ QUOTE ]

Going to do anything about it whoever moderates this or please continue ignoring blatant insults.


[/ QUOTE ]



This sentance doesn't make sense. Are you asking if I'm going to do anything about the 'trolling' you're talking about? Not in this instance.



[ QUOTE ]


For the record: kahntrutahn who are you? Your nick on stars? Unless you're a regular at 2/4. I'll arrange to PAY you 50$/hour, or with Hoss and Schneids' or some others' help even 100$/hour, to sit and play 500 hours with us with me being directly on your left.

Deal? If not how much is your word really worth that you come in talking trash about my results?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is just as much trolling as the trolling you're talking about.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

bk,

There's a fine line between being a nazi moderator and letting people go trolling around.

You are sliding the line so low that 1 liners are ok. Simple solution to your dilemma of "how much useless [censored] do we allow because people wanna do it and can't live without?" - ban people who consistently post 1 liners. Very easy.

This is not ROCKET SCIENCE - forum moderating is very easy - one sets a STANDART and then puts effort towards being CONSISTENT with the standart.

Now you or whoever else is moderating, have set a standart of not moderating anything but the most blatant insults such as "[censored] you bitch". If that is all you want of High Stakes, that is all you get.

My apologies, for I thought one liners belong in BBV and OOT but turns out I was wrong.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

Come on Alex, give BK a break. Kahn's post was uncalled for and unconstructive, but be a bigger man than him and just ignore it.

That said, I am curious about who he is on Stars . . .

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

thx for the quick response and explanation Alex.....I watched the rest of the match and watched DoD leave broke, he played very poorly and was tilting so the K high call down makes a little more sense to me but that guy really was having some god awful luck, so it appearded

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and if he does how has he been playing the highest games for so long?

[/ QUOTE ]

PokerStars Game #9733289395: Hold'em Limit ($200/$400) - 2007/05/03 - 18:07:13 (ET)
Table 'Theresia II' 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Hoss_TBF ($9975 in chips)
Seat 4: AlexSem ($10165 in chips)
Seat 5: pokkermon ($10989 in chips)
Seat 6: tiger76 ($22858 in chips)
pokkermon: posts small blind $100
tiger76: posts big blind $200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AlexSem [Tc Qd]
Hoss_TBF: folds
AlexSem: raises $200 to $400
pokkermon: folds
tiger76: raises $200 to $600
AlexSem: calls $200
*** FLOP *** [Th Td Qs]
tiger76: bets $200
AlexSem: raises $200 to $400
tiger76: calls $200
*** TURN *** [Th Td Qs] [3c]
tiger76: checks
AlexSem: checks
*** RIVER *** [Th Td Qs 3c] [9c]
tiger76: bets $400
AlexSem: raises $400 to $800
tiger76: raises $400 to $1200
AlexSem: raises $400 to $1600
Betting is capped
tiger76: calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AlexSem: shows [Tc Qd] (a full house, Tens full of Queens)
tiger76: mucks hand
AlexSem collected $5295 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $5300 | Rake $5
Board [Th Td Qs 3c 9c]
Seat 2: Hoss_TBF folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: AlexSem (button) showed [Tc Qd] and won ($5295) with a full house, Tens full of Queens
Seat 5: pokkermon (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: tiger76 (big blind) mucked [Jh Kh]

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

High stakes LHE is such a [censored] joke LOL

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
...
Do I call that river? It depends, in a lot of cases no I dont because I think he has a pair pretty often, but Id say 35% of the time or so Id call the river with my K high.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a question that should addressable empirically, if not even analytically, but I've been really wondering whether I undervalue K-hi in 2 or 3 handed games. I don't play high stakes. I've created the default rule for myself that I want to call with A-hi and need a reason to fold it, but I want to fold with K-hi all but rarely. Considering the amount of extreme aggression in online games, I wonder if that's way off.

edit: I want to know what the bots do!

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

Ya missed a bet on the turn, right?

You guys ALL play a game that is way over my head. I remember playing Tiger76 back on Party at 15-30 and then 30-60. He obviously must win, but I can't for the life of me figure out how. I orginally tagged him as a superfish, cuz he seems to take the worst of it alot. But he's gotta be doing something right. This is why I've never been good enough to crush online. I just can't figure out how players who seemingly take the worst of it so often, make up the difference, though I'm sure it's against players like me.

I'm sure your call on the turn with K9 was correct. But it wouldn't be correct against me, because I'm gonna at least have an ace or small pair. However, I'm being sincere when I say that I have no doubt you'd crush me. Both in this hand (when you hit your king), and all other hands as well. I suspect you'd outplya me in every other hand where neither of us hit. That's the difference between current games and the ones I first started playing 9 years ago. Back then, calling this turn raise would be suicide. Now it's good, tenacious play. The game of limit hold'em has passed me by.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

i'm with you lestat

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ya missed a bet on the turn, right?


[/ QUOTE ]

The turn check was intentional. Reason? To get him to pay me off when he hits or at least call the raise.

I raise the flop being an unusual play on my side that gets him wondering. Then I quickly check the turn indicating a free card, he puts me on KJ or J9 or low pocket pair. Considering he has KJ, J9 or at least A high, he'll bet the river almost always.

When he does, I raise. Does he call? Yes, unless he had a bad A high. Whenever he catches his 2 outer or 8 outer or 6 outer that he thinks is good, he's guaranteed to pay when I raise him and possibly 3-bet.


If I wanted to valuetown my FH. I'd smoothcall the flop and raise the turn or raise flop and bet turn, bet river. I felt that considering the number of possible draws and cards that he thinks would scare me, it's better to fake a draw and valuetown the river.


[ QUOTE ]

You guys ALL play a game that is way over my head. I remember playing Tiger76 back on Party at 15-30 and then 30-60. He obviously must win, but I can't for the life of me figure out how. I orginally tagged him as a superfish, cuz he seems to take the worst of it alot.

[/ QUOTE ]

His style is one that baffles a lot of 2+2ers because even when he has the worst of it, he's still a longterm winner vs folks that play 25/20 tight game in 6 max. Ray Zee explained it better than I could in his article this month and I'd suggest you guys check it out.

[ QUOTE ]

But he's gotta be doing something right. This is why I've never been good enough to crush online. I just can't figure out how players who seemingly take the worst of it so often, make up the difference, though I'm sure it's against players like me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The answer is simple: position is far more important than folks give it credit for.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure your call on the turn with K9 was correct. But it wouldn't be correct against me, because I'm gonna at least have an ace or small pair. However, I'm being sincere when I say that I have no doubt you'd crush me. Both in this hand (when you hit your king), and all other hands as well. I suspect you'd outplya me in every other hand where neither of us hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

The games have changed drastically. The amount of aggression I see on stars games is something I had seen never ever back when Party introduced 30/60, 50/100 and 100/200. It's tough for most players to adjust to and the swings take their poll (I'm hella broke while Tiger and 62offsuit are not), so :P


[ QUOTE ]

That's the difference between current games and the ones I first started playing 9 years ago. Back then, calling this turn raise would be suicide. Now it's good, tenacious play. The game of limit hold'em has passed me by.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya, I can't even find 4 tables of 100/200 the past few weeks - sad state of affairs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

alex I read your argument but I think your turn check is quite bad. There are a ton of hands tiger 3bets with from the BB that would call both a turn and river bet from you (not all of which would bet/call the river after turn goes check/check) and very few hands that would check/fold after calling the flop. There are also a bunch of hands that would checkraise the turn and calldown a 3bet (sometimes AQ, AA, etc.) but would only bet/call the river after you check through.

You are an aggressive player and after he calls the flop he is almost never folding that turn.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

Thanks Alex. Is the Zee article you're referring to called, "Why it happens to you"?. I just read it. Thanks again.

About your QT hand: I realize why you checked it on the turn, and assume that's what caused him to give you extra action on the river. However, it's been my experience online, that they'll often do the same thing if you bet the turn. I highly doubt tiger was folding to a turn bet. In fact, he may have bluff/raised you. But your check probably did get him to go off for 2 more bets than he otherwise would've on the river. I won't argue the point too hard, because I'm sure you know what you're doing.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

"hen I quickly check the turn indicating a free card, he puts me on KJ or J9 or low pocket pair. "

you never take a free card with those hands. turn check is awful.

edit - i'd like to see a hypothetical hand where checking a fh on the turn in position is correct.

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

three bet preflop, capped flop

Board: AA2/A

hero: 22

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

A close friend of mine sent this...

Enjoy.

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/2734/alexsemaw8.jpg

Re: 200/400 stars.......Strange hand
 

looks like absolute poker