Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

Today I got a $500 check from Pokerstars- less than a week after I requested it. It's even drawn on a prominent US bank and issued in the name of a US corporation (won't say which bank and corporation to keep from alerting any snooping feds). I didn't have to scan my drivers license or anything.

My experience in trying to get paid by Full Tilt could not be any more different. They demanded I send them a scanned copy of my driver's license and a bill. So I drove 15 miles to a professional copy place which scanned my license on top of my bank statement. Cost me 5 bucks and more importantly a lot of hassle.

The copy store e-mailed me a .5 MB pdf file which I opened just fine on my computer- the document was clear as a bell. And yet I get the following reply:

> Hello RIGEL444
>
> Thank you for contacting Full Tilt Poker Support.
>
> Unfortunately Robert when we tried to open the file there was an error.
> Please resubmit this document, please be sure that the attached document
> is no larger than 1 MB.
>
> Thank you for your cooperation, and if there's anything else we can help
> you with, please let us know.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Tracey
> Full Tilt Poker Support

Here is my reply:

FOR GOD'S SAKE I HAD THIS DOCUMENT PROFESSIONALLY SCANNED. THE FILE IS LESS THAN 500,000 bytes.

CAN YOU NOT OPEN A PDF FILE? I JUST OPENED IT AND AM LOOKING AT IT AS PLAIN AS DAY. I EVEN E-MAILED IT TO A FRIEND AND HE SAYS HE SEES IT FINE. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN'T SEE IT. I THINK YOU ARE LYING IN THE HOPES THAT I WILL GIVE UP AND KEEP MY MONEY ON FULL TILT. JUST IN CASE, I WILL SEND IT TO YOU AGAIN.

STOP STEALING MY MONEY!!!

I AM GOING TO POST ABOUT YOU STEALING MY MONEY ON TWO PLUS TWO FORUMS AND EVERY OTHER FORUM I CAN FIND!!!! THIS IS OUTRIGHT THEFT!!!!!

WHY IS IT THAT I CAN GET MY MONEY FROM POKER STARS AS EASY AS CAN BE AND NOT FROM YOU?

I WILL MAKE IT MY MISSION IN LIFE TO MAKE SURE THAT AS MANY PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET AS IS POSSIBLE KNOW THAT YOU REFUSE TO PAY ME MY MONEY.

STOP STEALING MY MONEY!!!!!!

RIGEL444

- end quote -

Yes, I have lost my cool, but I just knew these crooks would try to pull something like this. How do I get these crooks to give me my money? What do you do when someone claims to not be able to see a document you sent them?

Why on earth would anyone play on Full Tilt instead of Stars?

And if anyone from Full Tilt is reading this, give rigel444 his money back!

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

stars has not given me my money.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

Ummmmmm...wow. I know this must be very frustrating, but in the future I suggest you calm down and reread the email before sending it. One email from their CS displaying some possible incompetence, and you send an all-caps email calling them thieves and telling them you're going to tell everyone you can that FT are thieves? Wow. I sure hope you never have to deal with a truly rogue outfit...your head might explode with anger!

Suggestions - is there a number at FT you can call? PM one of the FT reps that post on 2+2? Perhaps take a slightly less angry tone when you make contact with someone?

Good luck!

Edit to add: The only one guilty of a crime right now is you. This is NOT outright theft, and they have NOT refused to pay you your money. You, however, have slandered them. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
FOR GOD'S SAKE I HAD THIS DOCUMENT PROFESSIONALLY SCANNED. THE FILE IS LESS THAN 500,000 bytes.

CAN YOU NOT OPEN A PDF FILE? I JUST OPENED IT AND AM LOOKING AT IT AS PLAIN AS DAY. I EVEN E-MAILED IT TO A FRIEND AND HE SAYS HE SEES IT FINE. I DON'T BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN'T SEE IT. I THINK YOU ARE LYING IN THE HOPES THAT I WILL GIVE UP AND KEEP MY MONEY ON FULL TILT. JUST IN CASE, I WILL SEND IT TO YOU AGAIN.

STOP STEALING MY MONEY!!!

I AM GOING TO POST ABOUT YOU STEALING MY MONEY ON TWO PLUS TWO FORUMS AND EVERY OTHER FORUM I CAN FIND!!!! THIS IS OUTRIGHT THEFT!!!!!

WHY IS IT THAT I CAN GET MY MONEY FROM POKER STARS AS EASY AS CAN BE AND NOT FROM YOU?

I WILL MAKE IT MY MISSION IN LIFE TO MAKE SURE THAT AS MANY PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET AS IS POSSIBLE KNOW THAT YOU REFUSE TO PAY ME MY MONEY.

STOP STEALING MY MONEY!!!!!!

RIGEL444

[/ QUOTE ]
What are you, the dumbest human being on earth? Why would you say all this [censored]? Complete overreaction. Don't you understand why they ask for this proof of address? Just imagine if you were the customer service rep who has to deal with this [censored]... I'd slow your inquiry down to a crawl. And then laugh my ass off that you think you're going to coerce an entire message board not to play somewhere because you're an impatient ass who can't verify his address.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]

What are you, the dumbest human being on earth? Why would you say all this [censored]?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm posting it because there's nothing else I can do. I got the document PROFESSIONALLY SCANNED, it's as clear as a bell, and yet they sit there and tell me "uh uh - not good enough, we can't see it."

And if Full Tilt has such good reasons for requiring this, why is it that Pokerstars and my old poker site pokerroom.com managed to pay me just fine without it?

But that's not my main beef. My beef is that I did EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID and I can do no more than get a document professionally scanned.

Actually, the only other thing I can do is post it here to make sure others can decide for themselves which approach they prefers- Stars' or Full Tilt's. What you or anyone else thinks about me is irrelevant to me. These are words on a screen- my money is MY MONEY.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

I think yelling at them and calling them thieves instead of trying to work with them and trying to figure out what they want you to do is definitely the best way to get your money.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

What are you, the dumbest human being on earth? Why would you say all this [censored]?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm posting it because there's nothing else I can do. I got the document PROFESSIONALLY SCANNED, it's as clear as a bell, and yet they sit there and tell me "uh uh - not good enough, we can't see it."

And if Full Tilt has such good reasons for requiring this, why is it that Pokerstars and my old poker site pokerroom.com managed to pay me just fine without it?

But that's not my main beef. My beef is that I did EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAID and I can do no more than get a document professionally scanned.

Actually, the only other thing I can do is post it here to make sure others can decide for themselves which approach they prefers- Stars' or Full Tilt's. What you or anyone else thinks about me is irrelevant to me. These are words on a screen- my money is MY MONEY.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't believe he was asking why you posted this, he was asking why you would email this to them. You have HUGELY overreacted to a single email.

You can do no more? So you have given up, they're keeping the money? I made a couple of suggestions, why don't you try those? And perhaps a little nicer follow-up email expressing your frustration a little more eloquently, maybe throwing in an apology for your earlier over-the-top email.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think yelling at them and calling them thieves instead of trying to work with them and trying to figure out what they want you to do is definitely the best way to get your money.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly... You couldn't have just written to them to explain the situation and ask what you can do to facilitate the process?

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
of a crime right now is you. This is NOT outright theft, and they have NOT refused to pay you your money. You, however, have slandered them. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, as a lawyer I think I know what I can and not not post. If they have a problem with it, they can come here and sue me. Oh, that's right- they avoid US jurisdiction like the plague.

And I shouldn't have to jump through even more hoops than I already have to get paid. I drove 15 miles in heavy traffic, waited for 30 minutes at the copy store. Paid them 5 bucks. Got a crystal-clear document e-mailed to me. E-mailed it to a friend and he sees it fine.

Yet they claim they can't see it. There's nothing else I can do at this point. I re-sent the pdf document, but I don't see why it should work any better this time.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

If the original post is real I agree with the others ....
What a stupid overreaction & moronic all caps reply to send to FT.
** They simply stated that the file you sent them came thru with an error when they tried to open it.
That's it.
you could have simply re sent it , faxed it or whatever.
It's good business sense to tell the customer to re send & make sure the file is less than 1Mb ....
If not , people like this original poster would then surely complain that "they should have told me " I couldn't re-send a higher res enlarged 1.6Mb file" ...

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
of a crime right now is you. This is NOT outright theft, and they have NOT refused to pay you your money. You, however, have slandered them. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, as a lawyer I think I know what I can and not not post. If they have a problem with it, they can come here and sue me. Oh, that's right- they avoid US jurisdiction like the plague.

And I shouldn't have to jump through even more hoops than I already have to get paid. I drove 15 miles in heavy traffic, waited for 30 minutes at the copy store. Paid them 5 bucks. Got a crystal-clear document e-mailed to me. E-mailed it to a friend and he sees it fine.

Yet they claim they can't see it. There's nothing else I can do at this point. I re-sent the pdf document, but I don't see why it should work any better this time.

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be quite the lawyer.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]


Yes, I have lost my cool, but I just knew these crooks would try to pull something like this. How do I get these crooks to give me my money?

[/ QUOTE ]

How did these crooks get your money in the first place? Did you give it to them? If you believe they're crooks, why did you send them money?

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think yelling at them and calling them thieves instead of trying to work with them and trying to figure out what they want you to do is definitely the best way to get your money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Could be, but I still have freedom of speech and so I hope they enjoy my money, because they will be hearing a lot more from me. I won't keep posting separate threads about this subject, but I will join every thread that is posted on the subject to tell my experiences about what happened to me. And the readers can decide for themselves whether I've just lost my cool or whether I might have a point.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's good business sense to tell the customer to re send & make sure the file is less than 1Mb ....


[/ QUOTE ]

The file is 483 kb.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]


You must be quite the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What - are you suggesting I SUE them? If they are safe from the jurisdiction of the US Department of Justice then I don't think they will sweat a default judgment I might get in the local court here in my state.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]

How did these crooks get your money in the first place? Did you give it to them? If you believe they're crooks, why did you send them money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, I understand the human desire to join the gang in attacking a post, but surely you can do better than that. Maybe the answer to your question has something to do with the fact that I DIDN'T KNOW that they wouldn't pay me when I joined.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

He's being what is termed "sarcastic". While you're at it, look up "obtuse" in the dictionary.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You must be quite the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What - are you suggesting I SUE them? If they are safe from the jurisdiction of the US Department of Justice then I don't think they will sweat a default judgment I might get in the local court here in my state.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, NO! I'm suggesting you not simply resend the document and throw up your hands with your "there's nothing more I can do" whine again. Yes there IS more you can do. Try to call them...PM FTPSean or whomever else is posting on here. Get a fax number and fax the document. There are SO many other things you can do.

When I made that comment, I was thinking about how you might advise a client who came to you with this:

Rigel: Sorry, John...we've emailed them twice...there's nothing more we can do. I suggest you go to every message board you can and bad-mouth FT.

John: Should we try to phone them, fax them, PM them?

Rigel: Nope. Nothing more we can do.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

B-O-O H-O-O

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You must be quite the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What - are you suggesting I SUE them? If they are safe from the jurisdiction of the US Department of Justice then I don't think they will sweat a default judgment I might get in the local court here in my state.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you a competent lawyer? If you are, I assume you know how to communicate with people in a courtroom, so why the total breakdown in interpersonal relations in this case?

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]

".... but I will join every thread that is posted on the subject to tell my experiences about what happened to me. And the readers can decide for themselves whether I've just lost my cool or whether I might have a point.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just lost your cool , I see no point.
Look at it this way , ..
Let's say that You honestly tell me you are going to send me $5,000 if I email you a copy of my DL, from a game HU we agreed to/ had at a play money table..
I do that, & you get an error when you try to open it ... could be a server error, a file error ect, who knows ..
So you promptly email me back, & are quick to tell me that there was an error when you tried to open it, & can I resend the file & be sure it's under 1Mb ...
I should then:
A) - Resend the file .
B) - Resend the file & ask for a fax number in case there are any future problems...
or ..:
C) - Immediately reply to you a nasty letter in all caps calling you a THEIF & YELLING STOP STEALING MY MONEY....

You think most rational people think "C" is the right answer ???

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]


I don't believe he was asking why you posted this, he was asking why you would email this to them. You have HUGELY overreacted to a single email.

You can do no more? So you have given up, they're keeping the money? I made a couple of suggestions, why don't you try those? And perhaps a little nicer follow-up email expressing your frustration a little more eloquently, maybe throwing in an apology for your earlier over-the-top email.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way I would apologize is if I somehow gained knowledge that they actually couldn't see the document I sent. But it seems unlikely to me that this is the case. My experience is that e-mail is a pretty reliable means of sending a document, and it's not like pdf documents are some rarity. Everyone I know has Adobe Acrobat.

My reaction is based upon my belief that this is not an innocent mistake. If I thought it was an innocent mistake, then I would have reacted differently. The old "I didn't get your letter" excuse is never very persuasive to me, and it's much less so with regard to e-mail. They got the e-mail AND the document. They just somehow claim they couldn't open it. Doesn't seem very likely to me. Seems much more likely that they are hoping that I will give up and pay them some more rake.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You must be quite the lawyer.

[/ QUOTE ]

What - are you suggesting I SUE them? If they are safe from the jurisdiction of the US Department of Justice then I don't think they will sweat a default judgment I might get in the local court here in my state.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you a competent lawyer? If you are, I assume you know how to communicate with people in a courtroom, so why the total breakdown in interpersonal relations in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]

EXACTLY.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I don't believe he was asking why you posted this, he was asking why you would email this to them. You have HUGELY overreacted to a single email.

You can do no more? So you have given up, they're keeping the money? I made a couple of suggestions, why don't you try those? And perhaps a little nicer follow-up email expressing your frustration a little more eloquently, maybe throwing in an apology for your earlier over-the-top email.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way I would apologize is if I somehow gained knowledge that they actually couldn't see the document I sent. But it seems unlikely to me that this is the case. My experience is that e-mail is a pretty reliable means of sending a document, and it's not like pdf documents are some rarity. Everyone I know has Adobe Acrobat.

My reaction is based upon my belief that this is not an innocent mistake. If I thought it was an innocent mistake, then I would have reacted differently. The old "I didn't get your letter" excuse is never very persuasive to me, and it's much less so with regard to e-mail. They got the e-mail AND the document. They just somehow claim they couldn't open it. Doesn't seem very likely to me. Seems much more likely that they are hoping that I will give up and pay them some more rake.

[/ QUOTE ]
Imagine how much more persuasive your argument would be if you took five minutes to try to figure out what the problem is on their end. You know - a means to actually solve the problem...

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]

Are you a competent lawyer? If you are, I assume you know how to communicate with people in a courtroom, so why the total breakdown in interpersonal relations in this case?

[/ QUOTE ]

I simply disagree with your appraisal. While I was well-aware of the likely reaction of this board, I have accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. I wanted to both get my point across to Full Tilt AND to let others know of my experiences.

And for all the huffing and puffing on this thread, I'm betting there's a couple of people here trying to decide whether to join FT or Stars. Maybe they have the right to decide as consumers that they will join Stars, which simply sends you your money, as opposed to FT, which makes you jump through hoops and, in my case, doesn't pay you even after you jump through those hoops.

And I'm not particarly upset anymore. I am prepared for whatever happens- the most they can do is keep my money. In which case I will do exactly what I said I would do and make sure that I report my experiences in every thread started on this topic.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
My reaction is based upon my belief that this is not an innocent mistake. If I thought it was an innocent mistake, then I would have reacted differently. The old "I didn't get your letter" excuse is never very persuasive to me, and it's much less so with regard to e-mail. They got the e-mail AND the document. They just somehow claim they couldn't open it. Doesn't seem very likely to me. Seems much more likely that they are hoping that I will give up and pay them some more rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your email to them and all of your responses in this thread align with this statement. This is the root of the problem.

I won't even try to argue the logic of why a multi-million (billion?) dollar company would try to scam you out of $400 over an ID issue, I doubt I'd get far. I wonder why all of the other people they're doing this to aren't posting here? No matter, must just be you they're picking on.

Why don't you humour all of us and just work on the premise that there is this microscopic chance that they are NOT trying to rip you off. Error in the file, incompetent CS agent, whatever. Why just give up?

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. I wanted to both get my point across to Full Tilt AND to let others know of my experiences.

And for all the huffing and puffing on this thread, I'm betting there's a couple of people here trying to decide whether to join FT or Stars. Maybe they have the right to decide as consumers that they will join Stars, which simply sends you your money, as opposed to FT, which makes you jump through hoops and, in my case, doesn't pay you even after you jump through those hoops.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think what you're missing here is that you've created one of the first threads where EVERYONE is siding with the poker site. Not a single person has voiced support for the way you handled this situation. You haven't done anything to dissuade potential customers from using Full Tilt.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, as a lawyer I think I know what I can and not not post.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I used to wonder why people hate lawyers... [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Why the freak out?

Maybe the file got corrupted when they downloaded it.

Send it again.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]

I think what you're missing here is that you've created one of the first threads where EVERYONE is siding with the poker site. Not a single person has voiced support for the way you handled this situation. You haven't done anything to dissuade potential customers from using Full Tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great- then maybe Full Tilt can pay me an advertising commission because, like I said, I'm going to post it a lot more, albeit not in individual threads.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

For some reason, I'll make one more attempt to help you out on this. You might want to check out this thread: Address Verification Problem

An almost identical situation to yours. I imagine your first reaction will be that this is proof there is some conspiracy at FT to keep everyone's money. I see it as proof that there is some incompetent file handling going on there. There is a fax number in that thread. I would suggest you:

1) PM NU Star and see if he got a resolution to this issue, and if so, what he did.

2) Fax your document to them with a decent cover letter that doesn't involve yelling at them.

3) If NU Star was NOT successful, you both PM FTSean and whoever else from FT that posts here with links to both of your threads.

Good luck!

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

cliff notes - OP is a douche and I hope he never gets his money, because someone so dumb is surely the type of player I want to keep a large roll online.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
For some reason, I'll make one more attempt to help you out on this. You might want to check out this thread: Address Verification Problem



[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the mature and constructive response. As I said before, the size of the file is not the problem- it's 487 kb and they said they can handle up to 1 mb.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

Are you a competent lawyer?

I doubt that very much. Probably unemployed if he actualy is a lawyer, wich I doubt even more than the competent issue.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

I hope you respond the same way to your clients and other lawyers. That would be awesome.

Also - what kind of lawyer are you? You don't have some kind of scanner or something at your office? You have to drive all that way to Kinko's do get this done?
Seems weird.


Also - this seems to be a totally routine situation.
Maybe the e-mail with the document didn't go through all the way (I think this can sometimes happen if you have a connection glitch in the middle of sending it or something).

I've had some documents that I've tried to send and then found out from the other end, "Dude, I don't know what you did. But I'm just getting a bunch of jibberish on this end."

It happens.

Some people have some serious problems with FT. You are not one of them.
People really do get their money from FT.
You really think they are just singling you out specifically just so they can keep your $400.
Try e-mailing again.

I'm the last person to defend FT because I'm kind of annoyed at their lack of cust-serv and other security issues that I've been reading about on here.
But they just haven't done anything to you in this situation.
And you have probably accomplished the opposite of your intended effect as I, and I believe others, kind of feel sorry for FT for having to deal with such ridiculous obnoxiousness.


Finally - is this really for real? This is so over-the-top ridiculous I somehow have my doubts that someone could react THAT badly to a routine "sorry, we couldn't read the document for some reason" type of e-mail.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For some reason, I'll make one more attempt to help you out on this. You might want to check out this thread: Address Verification Problem



[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the mature and constructive response. As I said before, the size of the file is not the problem- it's 487 kb and they said they can handle up to 1 mb.

[/ QUOTE ]

you'll notice that they didn't list the file's size as the specific reason they were unable to open it. they kindly asked you (with two pleases) to resubmit the file. are you really this thick? last time i checked they didn't let 10-year olds on poker sites, but i didn't think it was to reduce the amount of crybaby emails that FT support receives.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

OMG!!! You ARE the thick one aren't you! How many people have to give you solid advice before you turn-off your auto-defend switch and LISTEN.

Stop making ASSumptions about FT's intent (you're a lawyer?!?!?!? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]). Take them at their word and work it out. People get checks from FT ALL THE TIME. OMG!!!!

-RJ

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

Remember, anytime you will react in such fashion, any CS rep will retaliate 100x

They do not care, you are just another gambler for them.

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

Everybody shhh.... obviously this guys had a rough day and I feel your pain buddy... I now respectfully challenge you to a game of heads up $5/10 NLH and please dont forget to go on full blown monkey tilt when I refuse to give the money from your first pot back. Seriously how do you play poker? This guys like 100 times worse than the biggest Matusow blowup... who said the games weren't good anymore?

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

Wow. You think that maybe, just maybe, the file got corrupted and you could resend it? Or do you just not want spend the money on another email postage stamp?

Re: Full Tilt refuses to pay me my money
 

Well, strictly speaking, it's libel, not slander (slander is spoken, libel is written), and it's not a crime, it's a tort (a tort is an act for which you can be sued).