Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

This has puzzled me for quite some time and I've never seen any of the major players in poker (Hellmuth, Negraneu, Bruson, etc) talk about it much.

Most sporting events, the prize money is created or inflated by sponsors. I'm sure tennis/golf players pay an entry fee, but it's no where near the sum of the actual prize money distributed. The major team sports (football/basketball/baseball) make huge $$ of TV viewing rights.

Where does all the TV viewing $$ for poker go? It seems bizarre the WSOP or WPT gets mostly unlimited (often intrusive) access to tables during games to film, and can rake in advertising dollars for covering the events, but the players who are providing the entertainment don't see any of the money provided.

Hell, I know many top tennis players get paid an appearance fee just to compete in some of the lesser tournaments.

I'm genuinely curious how this works in poker. As far as I know, barring the occasional invitational tournament, all poker tourney's prize money is still strictly from player buy-ins.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

From what i know the money goes to the owners of the WSOP or the WPT. How could you possibly say "unlimited (often intrusive) access to tables". IT IS THEIR EVENT lol. They are not forcing you to play there. You are joining their event and they have rules that you agree to abide by.

Now onto the money thing again. Why should the TV ad money be given to the players? The players could care less about your entertainment, they are their to win money.

If you owned WSOP would you say hey guys why don't you just take my money i work for free?

Think about it, they have to pay the casino for the time and space (NOT CHEAP), pay people to run the tournament, pay the people to tape it, pay the play by play guys etc.

The owners are doing nothing wrong.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

A lot of the made for TV donkaments have big add-ons for free qualifiers, the casino/organisers take it for the big ones.
I think the above poster is wrong and there I dont think he realizes that the rake is what the players pay for time and space in the casinos, IMO the TV money should go into prizefunds (or deducted from the fee)- do you think tiger woods cares less about entertainment? you do see him paying entry fees

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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IMO the TV money should go into prizefunds

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Unfortunately, your oppinion doesn't matter. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

Regardless of the rake. How can you possibly say that the money should go back. You obviously don't think like a business man. Its your event you are entilted to the money.

regarding Tiger Woods. Tiger woods has endorsements and different things. But i assure you that most players could careless. Do you think tiger would really care if you didn't watch? The only thing that would happen is less people to buy his clubs. He would still win and he'd still make money.

You buy into the tournamnent and KNOW THIS AHEAD OF TIME. They are not cheating you. Its a business, they are in it to make money.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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Do you think tiger would really care if you didn't watch? The only thing that would happen is less people to buy his clubs. He would still win and he'd still make money.


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Yes, Tiger Woods would certainly care if people didn't watch. He'd lose large amounts of money without the revenues generated by television.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

resboard, what are you talking about? Nobody but you mentioned anything about cheating. And nobody said anybody was doing anything wrong, they just said where is the money going, and why aren't the players getting any of it?

The events are not televised by the casinos, they are televised by ESPN, WPT, etc. These people who make the tv shows don't pay anything to run the tournament, rent the space, or the stuff like that. The tv people only pay the camera crews and such, the direct costs of filming and televising the show.

Then, in most and possibly all cases, the casino pays money to the production company. For sure the WPT host casinos and Harrahs pay money to the WPT and ESPN, respectively. Then, the production companies make more money by selling ads.

It is, of course, true, that nobody is forcing anybody to play in these events, so the production companies and casinos are not stealing, per se. However, that doesn't mean that a more equitable split of the money wouldn't see some of the TV profits going to the players, it just means that the players don't have any power or ability, at least for now, to force such an equitable split. If we are ever able to effectively unionize, or some such arrangement, then we would have such power, and as a group we would make more money. It was very hard for each of the different major pro sports to unionize, and it will be infinitely harder for poker pros to ever do so, as the public is much less able to distinguish the talent level of a top pro from that of a second tier pro when watching them on tv. When it comes to football pros or the like, it is apparent to fans that they are watching a top pro, or not.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

In my opnion the relationship of

Poker Players <- Casino <- TV Network

is very similiar to

Football Player <- NFL <- TV Network

and it would seem in both cases the players are entitled to a share of the revenue.

The difference is that sports teams have unions and are highly organized to make demands.

Even if every "name" player boycotted events there would be plenty of nobodies still buying in. And the tv/poker press would simply begin making new "names"

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

Ok i really think some of you are not understanding this.

WSOP is a business. They are in the business of running Poker tournaments. WSOP Rents the casino. When you buy in you are paying a fee to the house and you are contributing to the prize pool. We all agree on that.

What happens from there. Well WSOP takes its videos and says who wants to pay me for these, well ESPN currently does. ESPN buys the rights to the WSOP recordings. So now WSOP is done. They made money from the rake to cover the cost of running the tournament, and they made their profit selling their tapes. Don't we agree businesses deserve to make money?

Now ESPN takes their new tapes and puts them on television. They make their money from selling ads. The money from these ads goes to covering the money they spent on the tapes from WSOP, and anything on top is profit.

Where in this line does anyone think money should be put back into the pool?


On a side note, down with unions. Unions destory most businesses.

BTW Greg I am fan.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

They aren't putting any money towards the players because they don't have to, their businesses are functioning at a high level of profitability without having to do so.

The NFL could have a rule stating "all players make 100K a year" but such would cripple the sport. All the best players would boycott, they would see the billions generated and demand a larger cut. The public would lose interest in the NFL because they want to see the best players and a high level of competition. Although the NFL could find replacement players (and has before) people wouldn't like it nearly as much and profits would dry up.

Long story short, sports leagues give players a cut of the tv money because they have to.

I don't blame poker organizations (WSOP/WPT) for not giving money to the players. They simply don't have to right now. The players aren't organized enough to demand it and the public doesn't care about the "stars" as much as they do with sports.

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Unions destory most businesses

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Unions can be very corrupt and can do alot of stupid stuff, however they also can achieve positive things too.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

Same place the ad money goes for sitcoms, dramatic series, and "reality" shows: to the production companies who put up the money to make them.

Poker shows are cheap to make, but definitely not free. In addition to the commentators, and pretty girl, you have a substantial number of crew and a lot of equipment, and the trucks to haul it. Somebody has to pay for all that, and whoever pays, expects to make a profit.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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Think about it, they have to pay the casino for the time and space (NOT CHEAP), pay people to run the tournament, pay the people to tape it, pay the play by play guys etc.


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This is just wrong on so many levels.

Casino's run tourney's regardless of WPT/WSOP. The money to run it comes from the vig. WPT/WSOP still charges the vig. Whatever money comes from TV is above and beyond.

Also, your arguments about it takes money to run things. Well, that's true for every event. Every golf event, every basketball game, every [insert any major event]. For all of those, the competetitor's prize money comes at least partially, if not mostly, from the event organizers.

In poker, the competitor get zero money from the organizers and actually pay the organizers the vig.

It sounds like the answer to my original question is, the WPT/WSOP just pocket it all. Nice work if you can swing it I suppose..start filming something that was already occurring and rake in the profit and give nothing back to the community that's making you the money.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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It sounds like the answer to my original question is, the WPT/WSOP just pocket it all.

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As far as the WPT goes, Lyle Berman pockets it all. OK, I'm sure he's got partners, etc. but he pockets a bunch of it.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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Casino's run tourney's regardless of WPT/WSOP. The money to run it comes from the vig. WPT/WSOP still charges the vig. Whatever money comes from TV is above and beyond.

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Every casino in Atantic City has tournamnets daily. The don't draw crowds or get filmed or make television, do you want to know why? Because the casino doesn't draw much for regular tournaments.

WSOP and WPT are on the owners dime not the casino.



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Nice work if you can swing it I suppose..start filming something that was already occurring and rake in the profit and give nothing back to the community that's making you the money.

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WSOP was the first structure to determine a champion.
Give nothingback to the community? Well think about it if it wasn't for them filming and putting it on TV the game would not be popular at all. you would not be able to log onto so many sites and play, and there would not be so many card rooms full of people.

Say it cost $1million to produce a TV episode of WSOP. IF ESPN buys it from WSOP for $5 they get a $4 million profit and you want them to contribute some to the pot. Well what happens when ESPN says "ah we don't want that episode" and WSOP loses money. Should the tourney players pay extra money to WSOP to help them out?

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

A - it doesn't cost $1 million to produce an episode. if it does, then everybody on that show whould be fired and they should let me produce it for a fraction of that.

B - Nobody is saying that the people producing the shows shouldn't profit from it. what we ARE saying is that if there is all of a sudden a windfall of sponsorship money involved in these tournaments, then it is in the general good interest of the game, the longevity, and the allure of the game to use some of that money to sweeten the prize pool.

at the very least, eliminate the vig players must pay for these tournaments. its the least the production company could do for the stars of its shows.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

The 1million was an example pal geez.

Anyway heres my last comment in the thread.

How much does it cost to make Wheel of fortune? How much do the players win? And how much does the show make?

The show profits millions each days. Do you see the game show contestants saying "You guys should give us more of a cut of the profit!" The production company keeps the money it earns.

Good luck to everyone.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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The 1million was an example pal geez.

Anyway heres my last comment in the thread.

How much does it cost to make Wheel of fortune? How much do the players win? And how much does the show make?

The show profits millions each days. Do you see the game show contestants saying "You guys should give us more of a cut of the profit!" The production company keeps the money it earns.

Good luck to everyone.

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Comparing Wheel of Fortune to Poker is like comparing Shakespeare's theatre productions to Big Brother; Wheel Of Fortune players DONT PAY TO BE THERE.
The players enter the tournament and pay the fee, lets say $500, that is the cost for them to use the dealers, toilets and occasionally eat from the buffet.
If there was no TV deal the casino would make this money and be happy with it- but then ESPN comes in and a lot of money is made by showing it on TV to which the players see nothing.
WPT can sell DVDs, produce their TV show (as far as I am aware) use the players likeness in whatever way they want: posters of the players, extreme right wing propaganda if they really wanted to.
They can make a lot of money off the players who have already paid money to be sitting at the tables

In poker:
The prizemoney is raised by the players
(Im not sure of the network bureaucracy) But the networks exchange money with the casino so they can film there
Money is made from advertising on the network
Money is made from the memorabilia and various other sources

Poker players see none of this, they make a net LOSS from playing, regardless of these large sums of money being wafted around behind the curtains.

In Golf players enter, and get to play on the courses for free
Similar deals that occur with the casinos and WPT occur with the PGA/courses and the networks where money is exchanged for TV rights, a % of this (and Im presuming gate fees and event sponsors) money goes to the players in prizemoney
Golfers make a huge profit from the field, Networks make a healthy profit, courses probably make a healthy profit- everyone is happy

Does this seem fair?

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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How much does it cost to make Wheel of fortune? How much do the players win? And how much does the show make?

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Completely apples and oranges comparison. Wheel of Fortune contestants aren't paying to play and aren't creating the pot that's there to win.

Poker is a competition where the players provide the prize money. The WSOP/WPT producers are making money off of these players without contributing anything to the players. Yes, TV broadcasts have made poker more popular, but that's irrelevant. Whether 10 or 10,000 people join a tournament, it's all prize money from the people playing.

If I organized the tiddlywinks championship and TV wanted coverage, I'd take some profit from the broadcast rights and distribute some to the prize fund. If the TV coverage folks said "No, you can't have any money", I'd tell them to stuff it. Why should I let them film my tiddlywinks championship, intrude on my players, and let them take all the profit?

WSOP/WPT would have nothing without the players, yet pay the players nothing. Players would be fine without the WSOP/WPT as the casinos would still run tourneys all the time.

Fossilman nailed it before though. In most other competitions, the competitors have a union that helps negotiate the split the competitors get for the broadcasting rights. Poker players don't and thus get nothing.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

The WPT, the EPT, the WSOP and all of the lesser televised tournaments should not pay the players a dime, and in turn the players should see this as their opportunity to seize on the fact that Lyle Berman and his ilk are putting money in their back pockets that rightly should go to the players.

If the poker boom lasts I see it going the same way as baseball did many many years ago. During baseballs inception players we paid very poorly and basicly told that there were lucky to be paid at all. Then many years later the players realized they were providing all the content, without them the game did not exist in the form it was presented to the public.


The guy earlier who was talking about Wheel of Fortune……the participant pool is never ending......no relevance to this topic. He goes on to say that we don’t think like businessmen. Well I would say it depends on what side of the business we are talking about, the player side or the owner side. And I’d finally like to comment on the fact that union destroy most business.......bla bla bla

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

Guys, you can stop trying to reason with resboard. He's obviously an idiot and his argument comes down to this
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On a side note, down with unions. Unions destory most businesses.


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He's just a retarded Alex Keaton. Leave him be.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

Greg is a board member of the PPA. Does he characterize the PPA as a union? Does he envision some sort of qualifying process like the PGA with their own separate events or does he view the egalitarian nature of poker with basicly unlimited fields where everyone who puts up their cash can play?

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

The PPA is definitely not a union. While I wish it were possible for poker players to unite and bargain for more of the tv money and other revenue streams, I'm realistic enough to know that it is very unlikely to happen. It is just not like a physical sport where everybody can clearly distinguish between the best and the second tier. As such, if we unionized and went on strike to get our due, it is quite likely we would just be replaced, and not missed enough to have market power. I hope I'm wrong, and we can do something down the road.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

Greg -

I'm sure it's been considered, but...

Why not start your OWN production company and host tourneys around the world with TV and the whole nine yards? You and some of the other big names you're connected with could easily (i'm sure its not as easy as it sounds, of course.) put together the funding and use your contacts to get something going.

Of course, the current WPT, WPC, WSOP etc. tourneys have an advantage - they already exist and are household names.

However, if you guys play your cards right, and inflate prize pools with sponsorhip dollars, you could attract some of the BIGGEST names (aside from yourselves of course) and instantly have THAT leverage in terms of viewership. people want to watch the big names. if your tourney has the biggest names, you should get more viewers.

i know its not very concrete, and there's a lot of work and details to make something like this happen. but, the way i've always seen things, if you want to effect change in the way things work, you must lead by example. you can lobby and argue and plead, but if you simply start doing things the way they ought to be done, then over time things will come around.

obviously, this is pretty optimistic. but it's the only way things get done.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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Greg -

I'm sure it's been considered, but...

Why not start your OWN production company and host tourneys around the world with TV and the whole nine yards?

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You mean like the PPL? LOL
Right now there is just no ad revenue for these events. Poker was not allowed to mature enough to interest such huge mainstream advertisers so you could have events like..."The Cadillac Open." "All - In with American Express," etc.

Maybe some day...but for now most ad revenue came from online poker sites which now can't really advertise to an American customer base.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

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Same place the ad money goes for sitcoms, dramatic series, and "reality" shows: to the production companies who put up the money to make them.

Poker shows are cheap to make, but definitely not free. In addition to the commentators, and pretty girl, you have a substantial number of crew and a lot of equipment, and the trucks to haul it. Somebody has to pay for all that, and whoever pays, expects to make a profit.

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That money also trickles down to the "content," who without them you could not have a show...even then actors constantly renegotiate contracts as their worth to that show increases...or when the potential revenue for the show increases / changes. For example, the show gets sold into syndication, or is now packaged and sold as DVD's...when this occurs the actors get a % of that.

The crews who film those shows belong to unions who not only ensure that their members get proper credit, but are paid a fair wage, and are not taken advantage of.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

As of now, you can't get anybody to pay you for providing them with a poker television show. The current trend is time-buy, where the show is not only produced by somebody outside the network, but somebody also pays the network to air the show. As such, even with all the biggest names, you wouldn't be able to pay for production, pay for the time-buy, and pay the players any money. The ad revenue you might have access to just isn't going to be enough to cover all of that.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

right on. obviously you have more experience and insight into this than i do. thanks for answering my question.

Re: Where does TV poker coveage ad money go?
 

OP,

Apparently the price they are charging people to play in poker tournaments is what the market will bear.