PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

i just spoke with a trusted adviser in the industry, who explained to me the fiscal realities of the PokerTek Poker Pro ePoker tables.

First off I'd like to remind everyone that I firmly believe there is a place for these new machines in select casino applications.

<ul type="square">[*]Municipalities where live card games are illegal, but video Blackjack and similar games are legal.[*]Casino boats, and other remote locations where staff will always be hard to find[*]Casinos that do not have the resources available to build a poker room[*]existing Vegas casinos with small poker rooms and low traffic, looking to crossgrade (this may be accurate in the future, at this point as you will see below its probably not the wisest choice for this application)[*]Temprary tables for satelites during a large tournament where staffing would be lost at the expense of cash game revenue (this includes the WSOP IMHO, they have had a problem staffing cash games until tournament tables start breaking down)[/list]
PokerTek's Poker Pro tables lease for $160/day, $58,400/year. At this point Poker Pro tables cannot be bought. This is similar to Shufflemaster's policy a few years ago (casinos no longer have to lease their Shufflemaster machines). Lets assume the dealer costs $10/hour for an average 10 hours/day - $100/day in dealer costs + taxes and insurance package - lets assume its $115/day. So yes at face value it appears that Poker Tek's Poker Pro tables are more expensive to operate per day than a live table using the equivalent space.

HOWEVER eTables don't have the inherent slowdown of dealers or (we assume) the potential mistakes. Calls to the floor will also be greatly minimized, therefore we can estimate 45 hands per hour rather than the standard 35 hands/hour commonly found with live dealers. Thats a theoretical $40/hour in revenue per table added per 10 hour session (assuming its a raked game), or $400/day - $146,000/year of found money that is left on the table when using a dealer. This equates to $340/day in ROI, or $124,100/year.

There are of course downsides. For example it will be harder to maintain the game at an eTable, and unused tables result in fixed expenses where as unused live tables are essentially just underperforming assets.

In short, from this basic analysis we can conclude its in the best interest of some casinos to consider using PokerPro ePoker tables from PokerTek provided it doesn't alienate it's existing base of customers. In my opinion they should only be used as temporary rentals for satellites where the vig is large enough to pay for it's rental in one game, or in casinos that do not have a viable poker room operation already in place.

Lets face it - this is the future whether we like it or not, many casinos to make the switch within the next few years once the price drops or a sale of the unit is lowered to 100,00 or so rather than the current leasing strategy.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

I bet Harrah's in Cherokee NC will or already has them. No live card games in NC unless it has recently changed.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

I played on these things at HP and i liked the speed of the action, the problem was no HP regulars were playing in the games, it was all 2+2'er types. I think these things will do much better in situations like you mentioned, where no alternative live dealers are available. I also don't think it would be a bad idea to throw one of these things in the middle of a casino floor, where other pit/slot games are going, i think it would attract attention

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

My argument for these machines is to just run them for SNG. I spoke to Jay at HP and gave him this suggestion.

2 100+9's per day hit break even according to your info TT. The avg sng is about 45 minutes. In reality you could run 24+6s and 51+9's all day without any breaks. When action is heads up, move them to the heads up table and start a new one.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

I think it would be in PokerTek's best interest to give these things away in some venues. Let's look at the numbers:

The lifespan on computer equipment like this can be expected to be at least 2 years with *some* maintenance involved. Lets say it costs $30,000 to build one ($5K for a nice table, $15K for screens and processing unit, $10K 2 years maintenance fixing screens &amp; cosmetics).

Lets also say a poker table in the corner of a bar gets patrons playing an average of 7 hours/day. If we see 45 hand/hour with an average rake of $1/hand at low limit, that's about an average of $315/day which is around $100K/year (after subtracting the cost of hardware + maintenance).

Every one of these machines is an ATM for PokerTek and the bar (who should be negotiating another $1-2/hand + all the extra patrons)

The obvious question of "what about the development and marketing costs involved?" With each new unit sold the per unit cost of this goes down. If they get one of these machines in every little corner of the country, that's a lot of machines.

You know... up until I wrote this post I hated these tables with a passion. Now, I might look into selling these things.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
When action is heads up, move them to the heads up table and start a new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which makes me wonder why they make them 10-person "tables" to begin with. why not just put up a bunch of kiosks and you go to a lobby screen where you select your table. When your tourney is up, or you get sick of 3/6 limit and want to move to NL you just push a button instead of getting out of the seat. The real estate footprint and action then becomes equivalent to the rest of the slot machines and no more "we have to take slots out for poker tables? oh noes!!!1" This opens the door to linking your kiosks with your other B&amp;M locations so you can find a table even if you're alone in the casino. Hey... did I just invent online gambling?

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

Lets assume the dealer costs $10/hour for an average 10 hours/day - $100/day in dealer costs + taxes and insurance package - lets assume its $115/day.

TT.....This number is low. The overhead on an employee is higher than that, which I guess would make them even more attractive for the Casinos. I like the idea of them *IF* they could bring poker to a venue close to me that otherwise could not have it. I love AC, but sometimes the two hour drive is just more of a hassle than I can handle. If the race tracks here in NYC brought them in I would go for sure. I think you are %100 right about these things coming whether we want them or not. If this is something that the industry supported the development of it's only a matter of time before they start popping up at your local B&amp;M. At first you will shy away from them. Then on one of your visits there won't be any seats available except at the Tek table so you will sit just until a seat opens at a 'real' table. Next thing you know in a 25 table room 15 of them will be plug-ins and everyone will be talking about the old days when every table had to be dealt 'by hand'. It may take a while but big changes usually do. How many of you here remember when cars first started putting the upper brake light on vehicles? Remember how weird it looked and how people said it was a waste and would never catch on? You can't stop progress. As for software bugs, I'm sure there will be some and I'm just as sure they will work them out. They can write software now that is capable of navigating a spacecraft to the edge of the Solar system, I'm SURE they can work out the bugs for something that involves a deck of 52 cards...lol

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

While from a pure cost analysis stand point these tables seem to make sense except for human element. I think that a fair amount of players would rather sit at a dealer table with real chips infront of them than at what is essentialy a computer screen. Why would anyone venture into a casino to play poker on an electric table when you can play the same game at home?

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lets assume the dealer costs $10/hour for an average 10 hours/day - $100/day in dealer costs + taxes and insurance package - lets assume its $115/day.

TT.....This number is low. The overhead on an employee is higher than that, which I guess would make them even more attractive for the Casinos.

[/ QUOTE ]

The quote I used comes directly from a casino executive at upper level management (not some floor flunkie) whose job it is to make new business investments, even if its low its accurate from the POV of management as they make their projected decisions. Keep in mind that the figure is also adjusted to compensate for the possibly lower "live time" that a ePoker table will generate due to fear of the unknown. You may be right that the rate is low in some markets, but in other markets I'm positive the rate is actually a bit high because their dealers are making minimum wage or slightly better + tips.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
While from a pure cost analysis stand point these tables seem to make sense except for human element. I think that a fair amount of players would rather sit at a dealer table with real chips infront of them than at what is essentialy a computer screen. Why would anyone venture into a casino to play poker on an electric table when you can play the same game at home?

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but I think your a year late into this discussion. Re-read my list of valid reasons why, and you will see that the majority of casinos rolling out these machines in bulk at this stage don't have alternatives. Also keep in mind people can also play slot machines at home, and video poker at home too - but that doesnt stop them from gambling at a casino.

My friend tells me although investment in these machines appears to be fiscally sound, he expects most larger casinos to slowly test the waters ala Hollywood Park - and they may not like the results. A wise investment strategy would be to rent the machines on an as-needed basis for larger casinos such as Bellagio, Wynn, etc if that is possible (I don't know yet), thats the sure way to test the waters by only using them during major tournaments for satelites.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

Dead on bro. I have no idea what dealers are being paid. I was just talking about the overhead part (insurance, taxes, etc.) which is much higher than most people realize. It's actually pretty expensive to have those darn employees that do all the stuff at your business!

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

I think the riverboats and Indian casinos that currently don't have poker will be a very natural market for these tables. They can be placed directly in the pit and managed by the same pit boss running the other games. Even if you have assign a "dealer" to explain the game and let players know how to work it, it eliminates floormen, brushes, and chiprunners. Plus it allows casinos that could never fill a significant card room to have a 1-3 table room.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When action is heads up, move them to the heads up table and start a new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which makes me wonder why they make them 10-person "tables" to begin with. why not just put up a bunch of kiosks and you go to a lobby screen where you select your table. When your tourney is up, or you get sick of 3/6 limit and want to move to NL you just push a button instead of getting out of the seat. The real estate footprint and action then becomes equivalent to the rest of the slot machines and no more "we have to take slots out for poker tables? oh noes!!!1" This opens the door to linking your kiosks with your other B&amp;M locations so you can find a table even if you're alone in the casino. Hey... did I just invent online gambling?

[/ QUOTE ]

If this path was taken, would it then be possible for the software to allow multi-tabling with other players within the casino? If so, of course, the EV for casinos using these machines goes through the roof.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

PokerTek has signed an agreement with Harrah's.

http://pokerworks.com/article-864.html

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

There's one argument against these tables that I don't think I've ever heard addressed. Video blackjack machines have been around forever, and yet most casinos are full of real blackjack tables with live dealers instead of machines.

It seems like all the same financial arguments would apply for blackjack as poker, so why haven't live backjack tables gone away yet?

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

I'd like to point out that i think I made an error in my calculations. I believe that taxes, insurance, and any other additional overhead that comes along with the dealer was already included in the $10/hour calculation - essentially the total cost per hour per dealer. My bad... this lowers the ROI by $5,478/year

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

Do these have multiple games to choose from? Can you use it for stud one minute and LHE the next?

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

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Do these have multiple games to choose from? Can you use it for stud one minute and LHE the next?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

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I bet Harrah's in Cherokee NC will or already has them. No live card games in NC unless it has recently changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was there for my first time last weekend. No poker yet, although they have the aforementioned video blackjack as well as video Let it Ride and video 3-card poker.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

Canterbury pays dealers minimum wage. Still, I'd love to see these tables for SnGs and satellites. I'd probably never play on them otherwise.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Canterbury pays dealers minimum wage. Still, I'd love to see these tables for SnGs and satellites. I'd probably never play on them otherwise.

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Milo - add the cost of shift management, uniforms, taxes, health insurance, 401k and other non-wage expenses. It will get a lot closer to $10/hour. Of course $10 is not an totally accurate figure, but it is what my associate used for his analysis.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

TT - I think you are spot on with your potential applications. Philadelphia Park is installing virtual Blackjack today as a work-around for the "NO tables games at PA casinos" law. I see this as a logical next step for PA casinos after the BJ proves popular (which I think it will).

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

I attended a PokerTek party for bloggers this past winter and the Heads-up model was by far the more popular.

I found the interface very easy to work with, but I go to casinos to play live poker and it felt like sitting at home with a table of Pokerstars up.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
I attended a PokerTek party for bloggers this past winter and the Heads-up model was by far the more popular.

I found the interface very easy to work with, but I go to casinos to play live poker and it felt like sitting at home with a table of Pokerstars up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heads-up, 6-handed, sng and stt satellites...all good applications.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Canterbury pays dealers minimum wage. Still, I'd love to see these tables for SnGs and satellites. I'd probably never play on them otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Milo - add the cost of shift management, uniforms, taxes, health insurance, 401k and other non-wage expenses. It will get a lot closer to $10/hour. Of course $10 is not an totally accurate figure, but it is what my associate used for his analysis.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to work at outsourcing outfit where we'd buy employees from companies (yes, we literally paid cash for people, kinda weird), re-badge them, and "rent" them back to the company, and the quick and dirty way to figure the "fully loaded" cost (all benefits and expenses) of the employee was double their salary. Sometimes it was more, sometimes it was less, but 2x salary is a decent measuring stick.

Also, with minimum wage north of $9 some places here in the Bay Area, looking at these numbers I wouldn't be surprised to see these tables popping up in some local rooms soon. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

Poker, specifically, is illegal in NC, not just gaming. An exception was granted for Cherokee. Harrah's at Cherokee has applied to the state to permit them to us PokerTek, but so far its been denied. PokerTek is based in Charlotte, however, and I think at some point it gets approved.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's one argument against these tables that I don't think I've ever heard addressed. Video blackjack machines have been around forever, and yet most casinos are full of real blackjack tables with live dealers instead of machines.

It seems like all the same financial arguments would apply for blackjack as poker, so why haven't live backjack tables gone away yet?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because most people want to sit at a table and have a live flesh and blood dealer to either:

- flirt with

- blame for the bad luck

- share their good luck

- or help socialize with the other players.

I don't think you lose much social interaction by not having a flesh and blood dealer at least in LA; in this town they simply don't (on average) contribute much to the social discourse.

My view (over the course of about ten plays) was that the ePoker tables at Hollywood Park were far closer to a B&amp;M experience to an online experience. ePoker's failure at Hollywood Park had far more to do with problems on the cardroom side (e.g., when to start/combine/split games, how to use props, collection issues) than any inherent problems with eTables or ePoker.

~ Rick

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
My view (over the course of about ten plays) was that the ePoker tables at Hollywood Park were far closer to a B&amp;M experience to an online experience. ePoker's failure at Hollywood Park had far more to do with problems on the cardroom side (e.g., when to start/combine/split games, how to use props, collection issues) than any inherent problems with eTables or ePoker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. You are correct sir!

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
My argument for these machines is to just run them for SNG. I spoke to Jay at HP and gave him this suggestion.

2 100+9's per day hit break even according to your info TT. The avg sng is about 45 minutes. In reality you could run 24+6s and 51+9's all day without any breaks. When action is heads up, move them to the heads up table and start a new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGs are a hard sell in a casino. Hawaiian Gardens is the top SNG card room in LA yet they really have to press to get about a dozen from 2:00pm to 10:00pm four times a week. As a player you tend to have to much sit (ie. wait for enough players to sign up) and not enough go (i.e., continuous play as you would online).

I also think they are among the worse possible utilization for these tables. Per TT's OP:

"PokerTek's Poker Pro tables lease for $160/day, $58,400/year. At this point Poker Pro tables cannot be bought."

In a typical casino or card room SNG setup you will have very little utilization of the eTables, exactly the opposite of what you would want if you were trying to establish a mix of both types of games. It seems the eTables are the ones you want utilized the most since the cost doesn't increase much with usage over a given day (except for wear and tear).

That said, a good spot for eTables (as mentioned by TT elsewhere in either this or the other thread) might be at the WSOP single table satellite area were you have huge demand for satellites and more knowledgeable players (who will spread the word if they have a positive experience).

In any event the ePoker people (and their casino partners) need to understand their product will fail unless they get both the electronic element and the cardroom element running smoothly.

~ Rick

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

The best use for etables: WSOP ME up till about 100 players left.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
My friend tells me although investment in these machines appears to be fiscally sound, he expects most larger casinos to slowly test the waters ala Hollywood Park - and they may not like the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

One problem is that there may be an inherent lack of compatibility between the goals of the ePoker people (which is to get people to use their product) and the goals of most people who work at casinos and card clubs (which in part is to keep their jobs well out into the future). The view inside the cardroom (in this case Hollywood Park where I know about half the staff) was that ePoker and eTables (if it succeeds) clearly threatens existing jobs (and the jobs it may create seem distant and unreachable to these casino workers). So at a not so subtle level you have a tendency for casino workers to sabotage the eTable section within their card club or casino.

To avoid this sabotage the ePoker people may need to run the whole show rather then depend on a partnership (except for the rental of space in a licensed casino or card room). Unfortunately, my experience is that the ePoker people have very little understanding of cardroom operations. The solution for such a venture could be for an ePoker company (and my understanding is that there are more than one) to find people who understand online poker, cardroom poker and procedures, along with something about electronics and computers. That's a hard mix but I can think of a few that qualify (as long as they aren't looking for sycophants [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).


[ QUOTE ]
A wise investment strategy would be to rent the machines on an as-needed basis for larger casinos such as Bellagio, Wynn, etc if that is possible (I don't know yet), thats the sure way to test the waters by only using them during major tournaments for satelites.

[/ QUOTE ]

This idea a winner for the following reasons (and perhaps more I haven't thought of):

- most big casinos holding big tournaments have space for the etables (in a ballroom/convention area)

- eTables probably would be accepted by the more experienced players at big tournaments

- big tournaments already have staffing problems; use of eTables won't threaten existing staff (as much) so they won't work against the success of the ePoker section.

- they would get heavy usage justifying the cost

Perhaps more later but I gotta run [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

~ Rick

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My argument for these machines is to just run them for SNG. I spoke to Jay at HP and gave him this suggestion.

2 100+9's per day hit break even according to your info TT. The avg sng is about 45 minutes. In reality you could run 24+6s and 51+9's all day without any breaks. When action is heads up, move them to the heads up table and start a new one.

[/ QUOTE ]

SNGs are a hard sell in a casino. Hawaiian Gardens is the top SNG card room in LA yet they really have to press to get about a dozen from 2:00pm to 10:00pm four times a week. As a player you tend to have to much sit (ie. wait for enough players to sign up) and not enough go (i.e., continuous play as you would online).


Sng's are a hard sell at a casino because the juice they charge is twice the amount that online charges and 1/2 the hands are dealt.

Moving SNG's to pokertek machines will increase the hands per hour and can be run profitably at less juice.
Dennisa

~ Rick

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sng's are a hard sell at a casino because the juice they charge is twice the amount that online charges and 1/2 the hands are dealt.

Moving SNG's to pokertek machines will increase the hands per hour and can be run profitably at less juice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree that generally the juice is too high in card club small SNGs but at Hawaiian Gardens they are charging a relatively low $10 juice on a $100 tournament (plus $3 for an extra $100 chip, the dealer keeping the extra chip as a "tip"). This compares favorably with the $100 plus $9 juice on a Party Poker SNG.

But for real small SNGs (let's say $40 entry plus juice) the juice will always be high in a casino even with eTables primarily because the overhead is high relative to the limit. You will never see $2 to $3 juice SNGs and the ability to actually make significant money online playing $11 to $33 SNGs on multiple tables (sort of analogous to the fact you will rarely see 50 cent/1 dollar limit games in a casino).

That said, as TT mentioned eTables might work real well in a huge tournament for satellites. There space often isn't a huge problem (when they are run in convention centers) and staffing is. There you will have little wait, lots of play, and a player base that will appreciate the better blind structure.

~ Rick

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

Should this be an issue that would make one rethink becoming a dealer for the longterm?

I know it'd make me hesitate as far as longevity.

b

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
In a typical casino or card room SNG setup you will have very little utilization of the eTables,

[/ QUOTE ]

Turning Stone is using etables for SNGs with some success. When I have been there I usually see one or two tables going. These are usually $30+$6 SNG and most of the players are 18-25 and seem happy with the setup.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

wouldn't it be awesome if there was a heads up poker machine at the end of the bar. it could just run hu cash or sitngo's. god damn that would be a goldmine.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]
Should this be an issue that would make one rethink becoming a dealer for the longterm?

I know it'd make me hesitate as far as longevity.

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it will probably put some poker dealers out of work and dissuade others from taking it up, but most of us in AC have other games (and even if you don't, experienced dealers should have no problems learning new games fairly quickly). Same thing happened to a lot of slot people when they started doing all the conversions to cashless games... business is business.

Besides, in this case, they seem like a pretty good idea. These Pokertek machines will eliminate the vast majority of both player and dealer errors, and move the games much faster, and a lot of the poker-boom era players play online as well, so they'll adapt. Craps and blackjack have different crowds.

From a player perspective though, I'd expect the house to at least lower the rake. 10% up to $4 per hand seems like a lot for an unmanned table, even after you consider what you're saving in tokes.

The other issue is that if these catch on like I think they will, you'll probably see smaller, less expensive approximations of this product used in home games appear pretty soon. You certainly don't need a huge computerized table to perform these kinds of functions, a low-end home computer with little GameBoy-type interfaces would get the job done just as well I imagine.

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

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$146,000/year of found money that is left on the table when using a dealer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Much of the money that CAZ rakes finds it's way back into the poker economy because there are so many playing dealers. Remove them and their money is removed and that extra revenue stays w/ the house. Plus, more playing dealers/more games. What will a full conversion to these machines mean to the poker economy?

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

More shorthanded games would be spread if I had to guess

Re: PokerTek Poker Pro tables: The inside scoop WHY
 

[ QUOTE ]

Besides, in this case, they seem like a pretty good idea. These Pokertek machines will eliminate the vast majority of both player and dealer errors, and move the games much faster, and a lot of the poker-boom era players play online as well, so they'll adapt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will the non-online players adapt? I play only live now. There are hordes of players who ask for set-ups and blame the dealer for everything that happens to them. They even throw the cards at the dealer. They smash their chips onto the table. I don't read the internet forum on this forum but on RGP there are 'online is rigged' posts every day. I can just imagine what will happen in B&amp;M play when the bad players keep getting beat. They are going to blame the computer. They will get suspicious that the winners are working for the house and that they are being robbed blind. They can't see the cards being shuffled and dealt and there will be those conspiracy minded people who can never be convince otherwise who aren't going to like it. We will see what we will see but I don't think it's going to be very good for the game.