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- - Confused JJ (http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=387283)

I'm pretty sure I played this hand badly, but I'm not sure how it should have been played.

I probably should have just lead out on the flop, but I check raised.

I lead out on the turn because I figured I might get a QQ and KK to fold and if he had AA or AK he would probably raise and I could safely fold.

When he called, I was totally baffled by what he had.

Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.50./$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
UTG folds, hero raises, MP1 3-bets, 6 folds, hero calls.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7.5SB, 2 players)
hero checks, MP1 bets, hero raises, MP1 calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.75BB, 2 players)
hero bets, MP1 calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7.75BB, 2 players)
hero checks, MP1 bets, hero ?

Just cap preflop. Reads?

Yes leading the flop is much better hear. Whats your read on villin?

If hes LP or SLAP this could be 99's easly.

When you check the flop i think alot of SLAPS an LP's just bet if they have connected in any way or have a big ace.

Looks like hes just calling with a small pair the bet on the river could be the third nine or again just betting cause you checked.

i like the R(means cap) B B B line withis hand HU with a possible B/f on the turn

His stats were TAG, but I only had about 50 hands or so.

Do I call the river?

I can't think of many hands I have beat. I usually cap preflop with JJ, but HU I tend to back off a little on some of my capping hands (JJ and AK) because I find that I'm behind 3-bettors too often.

Yes call the river no way your beat >6/7 times

this is 22-66 enough of the time

although im afraide he might show you qq or KK also

He 3-bet pre-flop. What could he possibly have that doesn't have me beat. 99, TT, QQ, KK, AA, AK all have me beat JJ is a split, but very unlikely. Plus he called my turn bet when the A fell.

2's, 4's 5's 7's 8's K10s KQs KQo

IDK on second thought that river call may be a little tougher then when i firt looked at it.

caping PF and leading the flop would have been alot better

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He 3-bet pre-flop. What could he possibly have that doesn't have me beat. 99, TT, QQ, KK, AA, AK all have me beat JJ is a split, but very unlikely. Plus he called my turn bet when the A fell.

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why we need reads, whats his PFR and VPIP?

has he 3-bet alot? what hands has he showed down?

calling the turn could seriously be 22's in some cases.

He was on the TAG side, but I had a limited sample. To me, anyone that 3 bets pre flop, calls a check raise, and then calls a bet when an Ace falls either has my JJ beat or is a horrible player and I saw no evidence he was horrible.

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He was on the TAG side, but I had a limited sample. To me, anyone that 3 bets pre flop, calls a check raise, and then calls a bet when an Ace falls either has my JJ beat or is a horrible player and I saw no evidence he was horrible.

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agreed. If he was taggish this is most likly QQ or KK

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Just cap preflop. Reads?

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Can I ask why you would cap JJ preflop? In the absence of reads to the contrary, the normal range for a three bet of an early position raise is AK, AQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010. Obviously it is different if you know that your opponent will three bet medium or even small pairs, but why assume that he will? Assuming that villain only overcalls with the hands recommended in SSHE, the only hand that you are beating is 1010 and you are in an even money race against the big overcard hands. You are less than an even money proposition, so why cap against one opponent? Are we seriously to think that he is going to throw away QQ if a ragged flop comes because he is crediting you with AA or KK after a pre-flop cap? If an ace comes on the flop, he is surely less likely to credit you with AK than if you didn't cap, so he is more likely to call down with KK or QQ (which I think he should do anyway whether you cap or not). I would be interested to know the rationale behind capping. What other hands do you cap with?

Grunch

cap preflop.

flop and rest of hand plays out differently.

As played, flop is so-so, I am more inclined to lead out here.

As played, might want to check here. There is no way you are representing A high on the flop with the c/r. Depending on his 3betting range, you may already be beat. But the right play is to check this ace. If you bet and he raises, you fold and lose a bet, if you check and call, and hes got the ace (KK or QQ not likely since you would face a 3bet on the flop), you lose a bet but get a chance to improve to a set, or if you check and he bluffs with hands like KdQd, KdJd, or QdJd (is villain capable of trying to buy the button?) you are ahead, and he will likely give check behind on the river.

River plays out differently.

As played, check/call the river, but its close.

Overall, I think you butchered this hand on almost every street.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just cap preflop. Reads?

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I ask why you would cap JJ preflop? In the absence of reads to the contrary, the normal range for a three bet of an early position raise is AK, AQs, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 1010. Obviously it is different if you know that your opponent will three bet medium or even small pairs, but why assume that he will? Assuming that villain only overcalls with the hands recommended in SSHE, the only hand that you are beating is 1010 and you are in an even money race against the big overcard hands. You are less than an even money proposition, so why cap against one opponent? Are we seriously to think that he is going to throw away QQ if a ragged flop comes because he is crediting you with AA or KK after a pre-flop cap? If an ace comes on the flop, he is surely less likely to credit you with AK than if you didn't cap, so he is more likely to call down with KK or QQ (which I think he should do anyway whether you cap or not). I would be interested to know the rationale behind capping. What other hands do you cap with?

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By capping preflop, you make the hand alot easier to play, since his perceived range of your hands are stronger than normal. Thus making the future streets easier to play. By calling the 3 bet you don't really have any information, other than the range of AJs+ 99+ which is not a good range to be up against with JJ. For example, if OP capped pf, lead the flop and got raised, suddenly villain's range is QQ+ allowing you to call the last bet on the flop and c/f UI on the turn.

I wouldn't assume he would 3bet with small or medium pairs, but capping preflop allows me to cut his hand range significantly postflop.

As for your question in finding value in the pf cap, even if its a coinflip, there is more to the hand than preflop play. Again, the cap is to make postflop alot easier. Exchange 1SB to save yourself 1 or 2 BB later.

As for villain calling down with KK or QQ, you will never know when he doesn't. But all you need is for him to call you down just once. Besides, I have seen plenty of opponents shut down KK and QQ when a flop comes (this includes myself).

I am only capping with TT+ in LP (ie. 3 bets to me) QQ+ and AKo+ in any position.

I get the feeling that you are more concerned about preflop play than postflop. I cannot stress enough how horrendously wrong this is. Money is won and lost postflop, not preflop.

I think your range of possible hands for villain is a bit high in the absence of other reads, but your explanation is interesting. You have to be pretty confident of your card reading skills if you lay down JJ to a raise on a ragged flop after capping pre-flop though. If you put villain on QQ plus for a flop raise, why not just fold the hand straight away? You aren't getting the odds to hit a set on the turn.

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I think your range of possible hands for villain is a bit high in the absence of other reads, but your explanation is interesting. You have to be pretty confident of your card reading skills if you lay down JJ to a raise on a ragged flop after capping pre-flop though. If you put villain on QQ plus for a flop raise, why not just fold the hand straight away? You aren't getting the odds to hit a set on the turn.

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You can't narrow down the villain's range until you bet. You call after the flop raise to deter the players from taking future bets.