150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

This is from a while ago. I don't remember any reads. Neverwin is CO and SB is nojob on UB.

Neverwin opens CO, nojob calls in SB, I call with Q8o in the BB.

Flop QJ9r
SB checks, I bet, CO calls, SB raises, I call, CO calls.

Turn 5, putting out a flush draw.
SB bets, I call?, CO calls.

River 5, SB checks, I bet, CO raises!, SB folds, I call?


Turn I probably should've raised to get CO out, but I'm not sure since I can't fold to a 3-bet. Maybe then a flop 3-bet is best? On the river, I couldn't put him on a hand.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

ive never played with neverwin. sure seems like your boned here a ton. but with neverwins reputation i suppose you can call and hope hes getting desperate with a random t or ak.

seems like nojobs range is top pair+ and any ten. i think your flop/turn line is fine.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

I'd pop the turn and then re-evaluate on the river taking a free showdown if that's what I determine to be best. If I get 3bet by CO I guess just call down. As played, I'm not folding the river as he could have thought you are betting a busted draw and thinks he can blow sb off the hand.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

what was the reasoning behind your flop donk? Did you expect neverwin to check a lot? Id check and let him bet his 66 or A5s or AK or whatever. I think he is good enough to not raise you here with many worse hands.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

Im curious about your flop play. Is there any reason why you decided that donking the was the best play?

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

I would fold since he has three fives, which is better than Queens and fives.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

I dunno guys if he is playing great he might try and push SB off a better hand since Kurosh's hand looks really suspicious and might be a bluff / way weak hand. Agree I wouldn't donk this flop generally.

-DeathDonkey

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

I think this is a must call. First, there isn't really a reasonable non bluff hand for NW to have, except maybe A5 with some backdoor flush draw or something, or maybe T5 if he's opening that loose. As DD said, look at the hand from NW's perspective - your hand looks like it could be a busted draw or weaker pair than you actually have, and on the river he thinks he has an opportunity to knock out the 3rd player.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

Great post. This is an interesting hand to think about, there were several lines you could take. I think I take ur line about 50% of the time, 3 bet the flop 30% of the time, and c/r the flop 20% of the time.. On the river I think you have to call, your just getting too good of odds, and he could have a hand like AT here enough to make the call.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

I'd like to hear why you guys think c/ring is superior to betting out on the flop. I think he does check behind at least some part of his range, Ax Kx maybe. A free turn is terrible for our hand here. Also, I think it makes the hand a lot easier to play and gives us more information.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think it makes the hand a lot easier to play and gives us more information.

[/ QUOTE ]
this isnt good thinking

why is it easier to play? because you're telling your opponents what u have early in the action so u can understand their actions better

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, I think it makes the hand a lot easier to play and gives us more information.

[/ QUOTE ]
this isnt good thinking

why is it easier to play? because you're telling your opponents what u have early in the action so u can understand their actions better

[/ QUOTE ]

actually i am not even sure what you are saying here.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

leaking information can make ur decisions easier but it doesnt earn u money

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

easier decisions = higher frequency of making the correct decision = earning money

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

no bc ur opponents have easier decisions as well

take it to the extreme

if your cards are face up all your decisions will be much easier than when your cards are face down

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

The difference is that you've interrupted the action before they've had a chance to make their plays. Your donkbet changes everything after you make it. This is where you leak information. When you check, you leak none, and your opponent's first action is made without additional information. The only question is if the money you make by more frequently making the correct decision because you leaked info by donking is going to outweigh the money you lost by leaking it.

Obviously if you know your opponent sees your cards, you'll have pretty easy decisions and you won't earn very much money.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

[ QUOTE ]
no bc ur opponents have easier decisions as well

take it to the extreme

if your cards are face up all your decisions will be much easier than when your cards are face down

[/ QUOTE ]

if your cards are faceup your decisions aren't easy.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

That's true really, but the point is that you just can't win with your cards face up.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

yeah, how are decisions easy w/ your cards face up? It would be easy if your opponents didn't know you knew your cards were face up i suppose...

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

if he donks flops with some regularity and with hands of differing strength then his hand is not face up.

i could be way off here but it seems there are plenty of situations, ie flop textures, where its better not to mindlessly cbet.

if i am neverwin i think i would check this flop with air bc it seems to hit the range of a ton of playable hands. his chance of taking it down with a flop is very low and his chance of getting cred is very high. it may better to check even ak here (dunno)

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he donks flops with some regularity and with hands of differing strength then his hand is not face up.


[/ QUOTE ]
kurosh said he wanted to donk to make the hand easier to play because he'd gain lots of information

if neverwin thinks that kurosh is donking a large range than neverwin is playing back with a large range too. not much information is gained on either side.

btw i dont think donking is neccessarily a bad play, but "gaining information" is the downside to it. not having the flop checked thru and giving neverwin a chance to protect ur hand are the upsides.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

"not having the flop checked thru and giving neverwin a chance to protect ur hand are the upsides. "

ya i agree with this.

Re: 150/300 TP, coordinated board, vs neverwin
 

when i play with neverwin he is pretty damn aggressive and would bet this flop with the vast majority of his range. Yea there might be a couple hands that he would check with but those are only a small percentage of his range. Giving a free card here really isn't even that tragic because your hand isn't that strong and there are few hands that would have folded the flop but will now improve to beat you. Getting neverwin to bet 66 on this flop is a coup.

Also it is rare that neverwin will help you protect your hand by raising your flop donk. Hes a good hand reader and probably won't raise without a hand that beats yours.

oh, and other than the flop donk i think u played the hand expertly ... reraising flop or raising turn would be big mistake imo