I hate you coldcallers
 

But I still want to make you pay. Basically I see this as a postflop squeeze sortoff and the plan once I got soo many callers was to shutdown but this board was just too good to not put pressure on each person fearing those behind them. The PF 3bet I do every so often esp vs a minraise of one of the weaker players. I prob call 25% of the time here 3bet 25% fold 25%. Hand was during the 30r I had been really quiet lately been card dead looking for a few spots to steal a few blinds now that antees kicked in.

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t120/t240
(Ante: t25)
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t31310
UTG+1: t13892
MP1: t13495
shaun: t11213
MP3: t9587
CO: t29660
Button: t12290
SB: t10130
BB: t15836

Pre-flop: (9 players) shaun is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises to t480</font>, <font color="#cc0000">shaun raises to t1680</font>, MP3 folds, CO calls t1680 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t2745)</font>, Button folds, SB calls t1560 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t4425)</font>, BB folds, MP1 calls t1200 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t5985)</font>.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (t7185, 4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">shaun is all-in t9508</font>,

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

preflop is more interesting than most flop.

even a weak tight nit like me might make this play.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

whats interesting about PF? I expect him to fold most of his hands if he 4bets I can fold easily. I have pos and if he flat calls and its HU I'm checking behind a lot of flops.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

Shaun,

Have most of his raises been minraises? If so I'm definetly reraising otherwise I might just cold call. I love the play post-flop. How does your action change if the flop doesn't give us a straight out? Say 2 3 7. Are you still moving in?

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

no I an c/f on 237 board and even Axx boards my plan was to c/f.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

meh, not in love with it, your gonna get looked up by the CC or minraiser with like TT to often for it to be profitable (yeah i know you have 10 outs).

But its close and def. not a terrible play.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

Why are we overbet pushing this flop? It looks like there might be some fishy players in the hand who will call with any overpair.

Also, doing this into 3 players I hate.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

I totally forgot that CO was in the hand. Do we not have any info on him? We have to be confident he will fold his middle pairs here to make this play yes?

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why are we overbet pushing this flop? It looks like there might be some fishy players in the hand who will call with any overpair.

Also, doing this into 3 players I hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the 3 players is why I did it.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

Against bad players (that cold call 7 BBs pf), I think this looks too much like you have what you have. Against good players I think they can get away, but I'm assuming that someone (bad) will call you with any pocket pair, which I have to believe someone still in the hand has. On the other hand, maybe you hit often enough when you are called to make this okay. Your reraise preflop could either convince them you really do have a made hand or you have AK. Seems really close.

I think your stack size is perfect for this play.

Edit: How do you play KK-AA here? 99? Do villains expect the answer is the same?

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are we overbet pushing this flop? It looks like there might be some fishy players in the hand who will call with any overpair.

Also, doing this into 3 players I hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the 3 players is why I did it.

[/ QUOTE ]

'cause it's not always AJo?

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

Why is this a good flop to c-bet? I think this might be the board that gives you the least FE.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why is this a good flop to c-bet? I think this might be the board that gives you the least FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause he has either 7 or 10 outs to a win almost always, though sometimes to a chop.

Shaun i like pre flop if you have a previous read this his min raises are weak.

On the flop i kind of like firing a hair under pot because of the way some people interpret over pot shoves, and it obviously commits u if i say fire 6600, and might get a few more folds out of 77/88 than the all in (though obviously nothing substantial, but at least a little.)

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

CO has a big stack. Did he build it up with loose play? If so, he ain't folding here. He's probably not worried about the SB for the same reason you're not worried about SB.

If CO cold called your 3-bet, then he's calling on this flop.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I prob call 25% of the time here 3bet 25% fold 25%

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I prob call 25% of the time here 3bet 25% fold 25%

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

the other 25% I timeout sorry forgot to include in original post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
CO has a big stack. Did he build it up with loose play? If so, he ain't folding here. He's probably not worried about the SB for the same reason you're not worried about SB.

If CO cold called your 3-bet, then he's calling on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree CO prob calls me the least here I actually though if I had to pick which one calls me the most on this flop I would think it was the SB .

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree CO prob calls me the least here I actually though if I had to pick which one calls me the most on this flop I would think it was the SB .

[/ QUOTE ]

I put CO on 99-QQ,AA,AQ+. He's def calling with all of his pairs. And with AQ and AK he could be thinking, "I have ten outs twice, I call."

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

I think you are getting called almost always here.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I disagree CO prob calls me the least here I actually though if I had to pick which one calls me the most on this flop I would think it was the SB .

[/ QUOTE ]

I put CO on 99-QQ,AA,AQ+. He's def calling with all of his pairs. And with AQ and AK he could be thinking, "I have ten outs twice, I call."

[/ QUOTE ]

I think his range is a bit widder then that I def don't think he ever calls with AK/AQ on the flop with 2 people still to act who easily could have him beat as well. I think they scare him into folding pretty much everything but AA which I think is a small portion of his range. After this hand and a few more rounds I had a lot better read on just how bad he was with calling PF with awful hands.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

I'll be so amazed if nobody calls.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

Without reading any of the many responses, if I hadn't seen you playing AJ in the hand my range for you here is 2 broadways 90%, PP 10%. Why else try to blast people out. I'd be calling with any PP and AQ+, definetely. I'd be amazed if no one called.

My line would be to shut down if I was you.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are we overbet pushing this flop? It looks like there might be some fishy players in the hand who will call with any overpair.

Also, doing this into 3 players I hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the 3 players is why I did it.

[/ QUOTE ]


So you thought that because you were overpushing into 3 people that they would think that you must have a big PP? Maybe more people can lay down hands in the 33r, but at the 10r, or std $50 freezouts I thnk you get called.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are we overbet pushing this flop? It looks like there might be some fishy players in the hand who will call with any overpair.

Also, doing this into 3 players I hate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because of the 3 players is why I did it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The less players the better. These guys don't sound too observant in the first place. To me your hand would look like QQ+ but probably not to them.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why are we overbet pushing this flop? It looks like there might be some fishy players in the hand who will call with any overpair.

Also, doing this into 3 players I hate.

[/ QUOTE ]


Because of the 3 players is why I did it.

[/ QUOTE ]


So you thought that because you were overpushing into 3 people that they would think that you must have a big PP? Maybe more people can lay down hands in the 33r, but at the 10r, or std $50 freezouts I thnk you get called.

[/ QUOTE ]


It's more then just the fact I am repping a big pp it's the fact that even if they have me beat they may be crushed by someone still to act whose slowplaying checking to the PF 3bettor. We are clever enough to know how none of the 3 have a set on this board ever and if A5 got to the flop good for them but AK AQ are folding and so is 77 from CO and SB.

Also the overbet is by like 1500 or so I basically had a PSB left.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

I don't like this. The CO 3bet cold-caller usually has AK or TT+, and isn't folding most of that range. Sure, you *probably* have 4-10 outs when called, but I don't think that justifies the play, since 22-55,99+ are folding basically never and your play looks desperate/transparent (either AA which makes sense only because AA would be *hoping* 55+ to call -- exactly opposite to the reason you seem to be pushing here -- or Ax pushing because even though you're behind you typically have outs when called).

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll be so amazed if nobody calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why is this a good flop to c-bet? I think this might be the board that gives you the least FE.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause he has either 7 or 10 outs to a win almost always, though sometimes to a chop.


[/ QUOTE ]

k... well you're getting called 98% of the time.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

Check/fold sounds about right on that flop. I can't imagine with that many cold-callers that you aren't getting looked up here. Also, your overbet push will look weak to them and someone will try to be a hero with his 99.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

getting called by 99 is not the end of the world It's actually +EV compared to c/fing because of our 10 outs twice and little less then half the time we have a 26k stack and ~55% of the time we are out.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
getting called by 99 is not the end of the world It's actually +EV compared to c/fing because of our 10 outs twice and little less then half the time we have a 26k stack and ~55% of the time we are out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but the point is (I think) that you're getting called here the *vast* majority of the time with 4 people in the pot, and when you do get called you have *at best* 10 outs (and really, even some of the hands you'd expect to fold, like AK won't fold because they'll think: I have 10 outs and I'm getting 2:1 -- sweet). In order for this to be good, you either have to fold out a fair number of better hands or get called by worse (which happens never). Even though you have good pot odds against much of Villains' calling range, you're drawing very slim against a fair portion of it too.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

youre right that getting called by 99 is +ev, but i really think that is best case scenario. more often i reckon you got called by QQ-JJ which is pretty bad.

i think if youre going to bet the flop i would bet something like 5500, it looks stronger. and call a shove of course.

i really dont know what is best here between betting and c/f'ing. its close, i guess.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

I really hated this and thought it was dumb the first time I read this thread but I find myself persuaded more and more than there is merit in at least considering this, which I wouldn't do.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really hated this and thought it was dumb the first time I read this thread but I find myself persuaded more and more than there is merit in at least considering this, which I wouldn't do.

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^^^^^^
applies to me also

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

I think if any of the 3 have AK they are folding it 100% of the time on this flop. If they just flat called PF they were looking to flop an A/K before sticking their stack in there and they did not and thus will fold. Get into their minds don't put yourself in their spot.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think if any of the 3 have AK they are folding it 100% of the time on this flop. If they just flat called PF they were looking to flop an A/K before sticking their stack in there and they did not and thus will fold. Get into their minds don't put yourself in their spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree that none are calling AK. The only one with the slightest chance of calling with it would be the last guy to act anyway.

Also, any of the cold-callers with QQ/KK likely would have 4-bet/shoved. AA 4-bet/shoves PF most of the time too, but occasionally gets tricky. So our revised range doesn't really make a push look that bad. I'd feel so much better about it if we AQ, but we don't. I guess if you have a good enough image, I think this could be a +EV play. [/me getting convinced]

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

I think theres 0 chance last to act guy calls with AK with all that money in the pot. I think the fact we have AJ is better then AQ because like you said we can discount QQ+ from their ranges and with AJ JJ combos are less likley and thus their ranges are AQ and other unpaired hands and smaller pairs which are worried about me having a big pair and someone behind them having a bigger pair. Some of you guys who seem to think this is bad/spewy and will never work seem to be echoing the reasons why it's a good move and it will work more then enough times to be +EV.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think theres 0 chance last to act guy calls with AK with all that money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. If the flop was 347, I'd agree. There has to be some small chance to last guy to act calls with AK, right? Depends on the buy-in, obv.

Good point about AJ, though.

I still agree with whoever said that leading for a standard c-bet planning to call any shove looks stronger.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

Concerning CO: He would have pushed PF with AK to pick up MP1's raise, but calling with 55/66/TT+.

Concerning SB: 2P or set... all calling.

Re: I hate you coldcallers
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I really hated this and thought it was dumb the first time I read this thread but I find myself persuaded more and more than there is merit in at least considering this, which I wouldn't do.

[/ QUOTE ]

^^^^^^^^
applies to me also

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah this has been a pretty interesting post actually. I bet if a new person to the message board posted this people would be even worse in saying how much they hate this.