A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

First hand, starting bank 3k. Rizen and i have played plenty before, but i coudln't say what he thinks of me, but know's i'm not a donk.

Blinds 10/20, hero holds AA on the button, Rizen is SB.

Preflop: Folds to hero, hero raises to 60, Rizen reraises to 200, BB folds, hero calls.

Flop: 9 3 2 rainbow (pot 420)
Rizen bets 300, hero?


Best line to extract maximum value pre? Anyone ever 4 bet pre instead?

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

calls and hopes board comes 93222

pretty much just keep calling and then shove non Q-K rivers

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

I like a raise on the flop I don't see him not putting in the rest with a big OP. Any other hand is shutting down on turns anyway.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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I like a raise on the flop I don't see him not putting in the rest with a big OP. Any other hand is shutting down on turns anyway.

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QFT

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

this is why i love being me, i can 4 bet pf and people will bluff 5 bet shove at me

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

you dont think rizen folds QQ to a raise on this dry-ass board?

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

Wrote up a whole long thing on the flop, then realized that it's a really trivial call. He's betting the turn a lot after we call on this board, with both bluffs and thin value bets, and he'll usually commit himself on the river with the hands that would call or 3-bet if we raised the flop.

Raise more preflop. Just drill that into your head and your ROI will go up.

I sometimes 4-bet preflop, but calling's fine. Against some people, one play or the other can be really really bad. If you're even just slightly deeper (175 BBs or so), you should be 4-betting this much more frequently against almost anyone.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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Wrote up a whole long thing on the flop, then realized that it's a really trivial call. He's betting the turn a lot after we call on this board, with both bluffs and thin value bets, and he'll usually commit himself on the river with the hands that would call or 3-bet if we raised the flop.

Raise more preflop. Just drill that into your head and your ROI will go up.

I sometimes 4-bet preflop, but calling's fine. Against some people, one play or the other can be really really bad. If you're even just slightly deeper (175 BBs or so), you should be 4-betting this much more frequently against almost anyone.

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i agree here
only 4-bet this every so often...
just call flop bet
raise turn
he most likely has a big pair here
even tho he wont give up on it so fast alarm bells would start to ring when you reraise him on the flop
and at least on the turn you would get a bet from him wich is more money

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

Im guessing Rizen's reraising range from the SB is fairly thin in the early stages so I quite like the 4bet. From the button, it won't get nearly as much respect and gives him the opportunity to 5 bet if he wants.

Following that line,
flop, I flat call any bet
turn, check behind/call most bets unless he is pot committing himself
river, raise AI/ bet

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

4-bet pf, raise flop or call flop and don't raise turn. i'd decide which to do based on how wide/narrow u think he's 3-betting here.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

There's so many damn ways to play this "optimally." What I mean is, playing optimally would require playing a different way everytime. Which move is right this time really does depend on your history with Rizen. Does he think you're capable of 4-betting light on the Button? What does he think you think of his SB 3-betting range from a Button open-raise from a good player?

Anyway, in a vacuum, my preference here is to call his 3-bet PF. Call flop (I do think Rizen is capable of folding QQ to a flop raise here). Call/bet turn. Call/bet river.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

i think callin preflop is 10000x better than reraising, generalyl speaking.

rizen's oop and u dont wanna blow him off j10s/k10/ blahblabh the millions of hands in his range. Call flop and give him a chance to hang himself or value bet thin like some1 else said.

without more history this looks like super std line

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

Raising the flop is really bad IMO unless you have laggy enough image to induce a bluff reshove from Rizen.

The thing is raising the flop really polarizes your range its basically AA/KK/Sets/Air(maybe not KK). But you'd never raise the flop here with like 66-QQ 9x, and you can also probably float with unpaired high cards. By calling it makes it other streets very difficult for Rizen OOP.
He has to second barrell at least some of the time because your range for calling that flop is pretty wide and it gets him to keep putting money in the pot with hands like TT-QQ or if he pairs his high cards.

edit: I know metagame is basically irrelevant here but if you raise AA and it goes to showdown spots like this will be very difficult with mid pairs.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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Raising the flop is really bad IMO unless you have laggy enough image to induce a bluff reshove from Rizen.

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Rizen is basically never bluff reshoving on the first hand of the tournament, IMO.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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Raising the flop is really bad IMO unless you have laggy enough image to induce a bluff reshove from Rizen.

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Rizen is basically never bluff reshoving on the first hand of the tournament, IMO.

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I can definitely say for fact, that I would never do this. I remember the hand in question, but don't want to say anything while there is still discussion.

-Rizen

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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I like a raise on the flop I don't see him not putting in the rest with a big OP. Any other hand is shutting down on turns anyway.

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Gross. What are you accomplishing by raising?

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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I like a raise on the flop I don't see him not putting in the rest with a big OP. Any other hand is shutting down on turns anyway.

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Gross. What are you accomplishing by raising?

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While I'm not a proponent of the flop raise, I wouldn't go as far to say that nothing is being accomplished by it. Obviously, we can get Rizen to put more money in the pot with a medium-high PP before an action killer card turns.

That said, I still think we gain more from just flat calling the flop lead.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

cc'ing his rr pf is fine. I might put in the 3rd raise pf.. but you're getting better value by cc'ing I think. On the flop, I'm reading a lot of "call, then raise the turn" replys.. which is just silly. You've got one pair and you're probably up against an overpair to the board. If not, he's on air and is going to be done w/ the hand anyway after you cc the flop. I make the overbet jam here to make it look like you've got 10's or J's here and hope to get a call from QQ or KK. Or maybe even a loose call from 8's. You could raise to like 1k for value too, but that looks too much like you're vb'ing your big pp. Jam.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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I like a raise on the flop I don't see him not putting in the rest with a big OP. Any other hand is shutting down on turns anyway.

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Gross. What are you accomplishing by raising?

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to build a pot before a scare card i.e. an overcard to his pp comes.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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calls and hopes board comes 93222
pretty much just keep calling and then shove non Q-K rivers

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lol WHAT? Horrible. How about any 10, J turn/river cards? Just keep calling and shove non K-Q rivers? So are you saying you think he might have KK or QQ? Why not then put in the big raise on the flop?

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

eagles with a board like this I think it's the opposite calling makes your hand either monster or float, because he's going to be betting a lot of turns and you know that and he prob knows you know that.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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to build a pot before a scare card i.e. an overcard to his pp comes.

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Ding!

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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eagles with a board like this I think it's the opposite calling makes your hand either monster or float, because he's going to be betting a lot of turns and you know that and he prob knows you know that.

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I disagree. I don't think I ever raise this flop. What do you do with TT here? JJ?

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

raising the flop to a good playr like rizen will make him fold his AQ,AK and who knows if he wants to get involved this early with JJ,QQ.

By flat calling we can MAYBE(its possible) get value if he bets the turn as a bluff with AK,AQ and at the same time will get more value out of his high pairs when we just call and make him react first on the turn.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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eagles with a board like this I think it's the opposite calling makes your hand either monster or float, because he's going to be betting a lot of turns and you know that and he prob knows you know that.

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I disagree. I don't think I ever raise this flop. What do you do with TT here? JJ?

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you just call obv. shaundeeb saying that if you call here you only have a monster/pure float is absurd.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

I also want to add I think metagame really doesn't matter with this hand as it will come up so rarely vs a specific opp.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

shaun,
the point i think pudge is making, isnt a metagame point. its the idea that calling that flop looks a lot JJ-77, not like a monster or float.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

Calling the flop looks like JJ-77, QQ-AA, and a float, which is why I think Rizen will fire at almost any turn with his pretty well-defined range of hands.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

You should probably just go ahead and 4-bet preflop this deep given that you have some history and he knows you're probably capable of 4-betting without the nuts in that position. As played I probably just raise flop, I don't know how often rizen fires second/third barrels with air here though but I'm guessing it's prboably not enough that calling is better.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

Rizen does not have air here. We're trying to get him to fire at the turn for value and information.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

...and we are hoping if he has unimproved overs he will catch up.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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shaun,
the point i think pudge is making, isnt a metagame point. its the idea that calling that flop looks a lot JJ-77, not like a monster or float.

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since we all have said we expect rizen to bet a lot of turns calling with those hands suck since we expect him to bet the turn and then we will have 1/3rd our stack in after the turn with a river dec and no more information on his range. Calling flop with 77-JJ with intention of folding turn sucks and when we get to the turn raisie/calling both suck for the same reasons.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

shaun,
i never said that. i expect rizen to give up with unimproved overs (which would generally make up almost 2/3 of his range)

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

I don't think his 3betting range first hand OOP is that wide esp vs a 2+2er

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

AK/AQ, AJs? and maybe TT+?

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

I think he would flat with AQ with these stacks I know I do, also because of the fact we have 2 aces his range of AK AQ and combinations he can have is soo much fewer.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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AJs

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Que?

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

shaun,
so his reraising range is only AK, and TT+.

also, obviously in this case there aren't as many unimproved overs (very few actually) but if we had say TT then calling due to the % of his range that is unimproved overs isnt bad at all.

Kramer,
I really just did that to make my math easier, but yeah prob just AK/AQ.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

I hate calling this flop because in theory it should really be a clear raise. However from most TAGs it's a monster like every time, and rizen probably knows that. I've been meaning to try playing AK like this against other good TAGs in cash instead of 4-betting. My problem with calling is that if we then fire big on the turn and river it's going to be obvious we have a huge hand anyways, and something bad might come off, but I guess we can get an extra bet off a lot of hands this way at least. I usually only take this line against people that are likely to keep firing to move me off 77-JJ, but I guess it's probably still best here depending how rizen views you. I still like 4-betting pre though.

Re: A hand vs Rizen in stars 109 double stack
 

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shaun,
so his reraising range is only AK, and TT+.

also, obviously in this case there aren't as many unimproved overs (very few actually) but if we had say TT then calling due to the % of his range that is unimproved overs isnt bad at all.

Kramer,
I really just did that to make my math easier, but yeah prob just AK/AQ.

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yah you keep saying this case but I think this hand is bad from a metagame perspective as the frequency is soo rare that shania shouldn't be the reason why you play the hand how you play it. And against that range you really think calling is best?