Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

The Making of A Myth

A psychologist from a prestigious university releases a study on pathological gambling. His research involves an in-depth study of five people whose lives have been ruined by excessive gambling. This study also shows co-morbidities of alcohol abuse, drug abuse, depression, financial ruin, and the destruction of family life. He indicates his research shows a gambling problem in society.

A major newspaper reads this study and decides to do an “expose” on gambling in their city. This paper focuses on a few individuals whose lives have been ruined by gambling abuse. The article also writes about the “explosion” of casinos proliferating throughout America.

A minister, after reading this article, walks slowly to his pulpit. He raises his bowed head and stares out unto his congregation. His hands lift up to the level of his shoulders and he proclaims: “Did you know the word sin is in the word casino?” The congregation, in unison, gives a low-toned gasp. It is almost as if revelation has been received on the immorality of gambling.

The up-for-election conservative politician, who was sitting in the above minister’s congregation, walks on stage to a cheering crowd gathered for his re-election. He waves his hands in gratitude for the warm reception. Once to the podium he raises his bowed head and starts to speak in a most serious tone. Then, like Robert Preston in the movie “The Music Man”, he bellows, “There’s trouble in River City. It starts with G and it is gambling.” The crowd gives a low-toned pant of approval. A new moral leader has appeared using the perceived evil of gambling as a major plank of his re-election campaign.

Other ministers, politicians, and newspapers, spread the above message across the country, and, like a virus, thus is born the widespread myth that there is a gambling problem in America. All because of a limited study by a university professor(s) on a small group of abusive gamblers who, from this study, extrapolate these behaviors into broad social generalizations. This myth has been generated by social scientists, religious leaders, politicians, and the media in this manner hundreds of times.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

we're all a bunch of degeneretes. I've already accepted the fact that I'll never be able to quit. I'll just learn to deal, live, and manage it.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

It's not an epidemic, but high stakes gambling is a degenerate pastime with very little social value. It's pretty obvious from recent events that 99% of these guys are just action junkies with few qualms about doing whatever it takes to get an edge. Amarillo Slim is the rule not the exception.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

OP,

I take it you don't know any gamblers....

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

I feel like I've seen and heard enough to make a pretty informed judgment. I did say high stakes gambling.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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I feel like I've seen and heard enough to make a pretty informed judgment. I did say high stakes gambling.

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Yeah, reading NVG pretty much qualifies anyone as an expert in the poker/gambling community

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

i don't anything about writing but it seems like a pretty good intro

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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i don't anything about writing but it seems like a pretty good intro

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I'd be interested to read some of the citations on gambling dependence as moral panic though. Assuming, of course, that the OP has actually done his research before reaching his conclusion.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

I'd be very interested in hearing what community service (sans BG's charitable contributions) any of these high stakes players have ever provided other than boinking the occasional cocktail waitress.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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I'd be very interested in hearing what community service (sans BG's charitable contributions) any of these high stakes players have ever provided other than boinking the occasional cocktail waitress.

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They inhabit a nexus of the modern community. They spread gossip and news from the rich to the poor and back, which is thought to be good for the community. They provide an outlet for men to compete and raise their testosterone levels without violence.

The first lecture I ever attended in college was by an Italian cosmologist, delivered in a heavy accent. The theme of his talk was "What use is cosmology?" What conceivable value is there in knowing what took place billions of years ago? This is the question that the government keeps asking before they pay him.

His answer: "I don't know. Get off my back".

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

Actually, I like being a sinner. Maybe that is why gambling has always been there for me. I like women capable of wild sex and fast cars and big firearms and all the drama that goes with it. Sometimes it's an adventure just to get broke.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

This guy reminds me of ayn rand.

Anyways, neverwinpoker.com that should clear up a few things.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

The problem with their study is survivorship bias, meaning that he only look at one extreme end, in this case being the worst losers. In order to know if there is a gambling problem in America you would have to take a random sample of people and not just the people who have lost everything. This is pretty much the subject of the book Fooled by Randomness.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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Actually, I like being a sinner. Maybe that is why gambling has always been there for me. I like women capable of wild sex and fast cars and big firearms and all the drama that goes with it. Sometimes it's an adventure just to get broke.

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Wow, you sound like a winner.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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I feel like I've seen and heard enough to make a pretty informed judgment. I did say high stakes gambling.

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Grace, do you know what "OP" means? It means Original Poster. He wasn't replying to your post.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

As I see it, ministers and public servants want their hands on that money. They don't get a cut of the action, and that's why they object. Although if you are an ethical person who respects the law, then you are doing as much as can be expected (in terms of donating a percentage of your proceeds to philanthropy, and duh, paying taxes on the income).

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

I am going to be writing a paper on this during the week that pertains it to ethics and legality. It's a short 2-3 page paper, and I'll probably use some of these ideas if you don't mind. I think the introduction is well written and paints a good picture.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

The intro might be written fairly well, but it doesn't make up for the fact that it's incredibly wrong. You think the anti-gambling movement started because of some unscientific studies about a handful of problem gamblers? You think there aren't thousands of people out there who really do gamble away much needed money?

I'm clearly not in favor of anti-gambling laws, but I can at least still realize that there are so many degens out there who gamble away their kid's food money.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

I don't know what your study is for, I'm assuming you're either a 1st year college student or in high school because what you wrote is so utterly devoid of any informed research.

As someone who has done problem gambling research myself in Europe, and read innumerable epidemiological studies from America on it I can attest to the fact that there is an abundance of rigorous, scientific, random population prevalence studies from America both nationally at at state levels.

The figures, for those of you who are interested in more than just a misinformed polemic, from Shaffer & Hall's (Harvard) 2001 meta-analysis of all properly carried out studies on the prevalence of problem gambling in north America are:

For lifetime prevalence % -
Level 1 (no gambling-related problems) 93.9%
Level 2* (subclincial gambling problems) 4.2%
Level 3 (clinical gambling disorder) 1.9%

*Level 2 subclinical means a person experiences problems with their gambling but does not fulfill the conditions for a diagnosis of the psychiatric condition called pathological gambling, which is severe problem gambling.

For past year prevalence %
Level 1 (no gambling-related problems) 96.0%
Level 2 (subclincial gambling problems) 2.5%
Level 3 (clinical gambling disorder) 1.5%

Problem gambling is a greater population problem percentage wise than problem drug use in most countries where there is comparable data.

I'm not trying to grind an axe, but if you're gonna listen to someone on this topic I suppose you might as well listen to someone who knows what they're talking about unlike the OP.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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I am going to be writing a paper on this during the week that pertains it to ethics and legality. It's a short 2-3 page paper, and I'll probably use some of these ideas if you don't mind.

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That would be a very bad idea.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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Actually, I like being a sinner. Maybe that is why gambling has always been there for me. I like women capable of wild sex and fast cars and big firearms and all the drama that goes with it. Sometimes it's an adventure just to get broke.

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Wow, you sound like a winner.

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LOL Actually, I hate to be broke, and have been married to the same wild woman for 22 years and the fast car sits in the garage. But it sounded good.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

"Problem gambling is a greater population problem percentage wise than problem drug use in most countries where there is comparable data."

If it's at 2% then it's not a societal problem.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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"Problem gambling is a greater population problem percentage wise than problem drug use in most countries where there is comparable data."

If it's at 2% then it's not a societal problem.

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According to his data it's at 6.1%.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

you can't just tack on the 4% to the 2%. "problems with their gambling" could mean:

a) my girlfriend doesn't like my job as a Pro Player
b) I'm a cook and I just blew $1000 on the Wizards-Cavs last night. That was stupid. Now I can't do anything for the next two weeks.
c) My wife is upset that I come home smelling like beer and cigars every wednesday when I come home from the weekly $20 poker night.
d) As a college student, I spent 25 hours last week playing poker - $5 SNGs, I made $78 last week. Ironically, I got a 78 on my Sociology exam.

I think all of these would qualify as "a person experiences problems with their gambling but does not fulfill the conditions for a diagnosis of the psychiatric condition called pathological gambling"





However, 2% is a pretty big portion of the population to be "pathological gamblers," and probably should count as a "societal problem." I'd love to see comparable numbers for Alcoholics, Addicts, Shopoholics, Nymphos, etc. I'd also be curious to see a Venn Diagram to see how much these categories overlap - if it is just 4% of the country who are prone to "oholicism."

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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"Problem gambling is a greater population problem percentage wise than problem drug use in most countries where there is comparable data."

If it's at 2% then it's not a societal problem.

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According to his data it's at 6.1%.

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It's not clear to me what that other 4% is. If it's people who at one time in their lives gambled a little too much, suffered some negative consequences, and didn't make a habit of it then I don't think those people count as part of a societal problem.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

And quite frankly, I'm not sure that 4% of "problem but not the worst kind of problem" gamblers qualifies as a societal problem even taken on top of the other two percent.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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I don't know what your study is for, I'm assuming you're either a 1st year college student or in high school because what you wrote is so utterly devoid of any informed research.

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Agreed. A very good non-technical book on the subject is "Easy money - Inside the gambler's mind", written by the late David Spanier, who was a passionate poker player, friend of Tony Holden ("Big Deal") and Al Alvarez ("The biggest game in town").

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

OP ... if you are interested in this subject, then the place to start is

Becker & Murphy - A Theory of Rational Addiction
Journal of Political Economy, vol 96, no 4, aug 1988


There been several critics of their approach, most notably Akerloft

Also been conducted several empiral tests of their theory based on different addictive substances, from the top of my head Patricia Mobilia comes to mind for looking solely at gambling.


But I guess this is not what you where looking for [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

OP signed up on 2+2 in an attempt to be clever. He wrote a critique that uses a one-sided argument to criticize one-sidedness. He then edited the article for spelling and grammatical errors. OP was next found playing .25/.50NL, where the 4 buy-ins he won a week before was lost on bad beats and a failed semi-bluff with the K high flush draw.

Somewhere 204 miles away from OP, a conservative policitian is getting a blow job in his hotel room while his 23 year old Yale Grad speech writer is drafting something up about how gambling is bad. And some gambler is not receiving a blow job at the moment, but is tipping a cocktail waitress large in the hope for one.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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OP signed up on 2+2 in an attempt to be clever. He wrote a critique that uses a one-sided argument to criticize one-sidedness. He then edited the article for spelling and grammatical errors. OP was next found playing .25/.50NL, where the 4 buy-ins he won a week before was lost on bad beats and a failed semi-bluff with the K high flush draw.

Somewhere 204 miles away from OP, a conservative policitian is getting a blow job in his hotel room while his 23 year old Yale Grad speech writer is drafting something up about how gambling is bad. And some gambler is not receiving a blow job at the moment, but is tipping a cocktail waitress large in the hope for one.

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great stuff...depressing, but great stuff.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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I am going to be writing a paper on this during the week that pertains it to ethics and legality. It's a short 2-3 page paper, and I'll probably use some of these ideas if you don't mind. I think the introduction is well written and paints a good picture.

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If you coach me at poker I'll coach you at not writing bad papers.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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you can't just tack on the 4% to the 2%. "problems with their gambling" could mean:

a) my girlfriend doesn't like my job as a Pro Player
b) I'm a cook and I just blew $1000 on the Wizards-Cavs last night. That was stupid. Now I can't do anything for the next two weeks.
c) My wife is upset that I come home smelling like beer and cigars every wednesday when I come home from the weekly $20 poker night.
d) As a college student, I spent 25 hours last week playing poker - $5 SNGs, I made $78 last week. Ironically, I got a 78 on my Sociology exam.

I think all of these would qualify as "a person experiences problems with their gambling but does not fulfill the conditions for a diagnosis of the psychiatric condition called pathological gambling"





However, 2% is a pretty big portion of the population to be "pathological gamblers," and probably should count as a "societal problem." I'd love to see comparable numbers for Alcoholics, Addicts, Shopoholics, Nymphos, etc. I'd also be curious to see a Venn Diagram to see how much these categories overlap - if it is just 4% of the country who are prone to "oholicism."

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Only B in the above example can be construed as problem gambling, and even that is a stretch. Cute little anecdotes aren't useful in identifying what a problem gambler is, as it takes into account a whole array of circumstances and ways of acting. If for example, that cook couldn't make rent, and then chased his bet with $300 dollars he had left, then he tends more towards problem gambling. If on the otherhand, he just lost some money he allocated to gambling, and could still meet all his bills, it probably isn't.

Examples A and C are just stupid. Somebody not liking your job as a professional poker player, or your weekly card game doesn't make it problem gambling. Those are marital/relationship problems, not gambling problems.

Example D is borderline, but if it was a throw-away non major class then it isn't all that big a deal. Did he learn his lesson and study harder or cut back afterwards? Could he have afforded to lose the money he was gambling with?

Please don't oversimplify the issue. I can tell you, as a son of gambling addict who destroyed his family and life, it ain't that simple.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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you can't just tack on the 4% to the 2%.

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According to his data (and I'm only respondonding to what he posted as I have no other stats at hand) the 4% did count as problem gamblers under the subclinical definition:

"*Level 2 subclinical means a person experiences problems with their gambling but does not fulfill the conditions for a diagnosis of the psychiatric condition called pathological gambling, which is severe problem gambling."

In other words, they have problems with their gambling but not at the level for them to be classified as pathalogical. Quite frankly I'm a bit astonished that 2% of our population does qualify as pathalogical. That's quite a large number of people.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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As someone who has done problem gambling research myself in Europe, and read innumerable epidemiological studies from America on it I can attest to the fact that there is an abundance of rigorous, scientific, random population prevalence studies from America both nationally at at state levels.


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Can I ask where you did your research, Hotspur? While I'm not especially familiar with the field, the stuff by Iain Brown out of Glasgow really impresses me.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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A minister, after reading this article, walks slowly to his pulpit. He raises his bowed head and stares out unto his congregation. His hands lift up to the level of his shoulders and he proclaims: “Did you know the word sin is in the word casino?” The congregation, in unison, gives a low-toned gasp. It is almost as if revelation has been received on the immorality of gambling.

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A little side story. In my home town there was this reputed whore-monger/drug-dealer. The guy owned three differnt strip clubs which were all pretty shay. Two of his stip clubs were eventually closed due to prostitution. When one of them was raided, a back room was found with a bunch of sex toys a couple of beds, and a safe which had over 3 million in cash in it. Nonetheless this guy was supposedly a devout catholic and donated a confirmed hundreds of thousands to his local church. Despite knowing that this guy was into alot of shady activity, the church gladly took his donations, and actually named a wing of the newly renovated church in his honor. I know this story doesn't have much to do wiht gambling, but it goes to show that the church is all about the money. I can dig up the achived news articles if anyone wants them.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

His hands lift up to the level of his shoulders and he proclaims: “Did you know the word sin is in the word casino?”

holy crap that is the worst line ever.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

I do know what OP means. He replied to my post however, and his response fit what I wrote.

I don't know how the "quick response" script works. It may be that whenever used it automatically places the most recent poster in the "response to" link, which would have been me.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

4% is a small number. 96% of the population has to pay for the short comings of 4%? We would start to resemble more of a communist state if we were to take this approach. fast food, tobacco and alcohol ruin the lives of millions of people too.

Re: Myth of Problem Gambling in America - Preface to my study
 

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I do know what OP means. He replied to my post however, and his response fit what I wrote.

I don't know how the "quick response" script works. It may be that whenever used it automatically places the most recent poster in the "response to" link, which would have been me.

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That's exactly how the quick reply works and why it is important to pay attention to the meaning of someone's post. I write from experience as I did this a few times in my early days here.