Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

As many of you know, many times a week, there are poker articles written on P5s by mostly no-names and appear on the P5 home page. Well, this latest one is no exception. I am referring to the latest article written by Fox. The article is well written and is not a bad article (I guess), however I am not into reading poker article written by unproven poker players. In Fox’s P5 profile he writes:

“I quit my job to play full time about 4 years ago, and haven't looked back. I also write a blog here on pocketfives (Fox's Blog), and I run a poker coaching web site at www.pokerfox.net. I built my bankroll bonus whoring at first, but I play high enough now that I don't use bonuses as much as I used to. I still keep up to date on them for members of my site, and can usually answer any questions you have about the little extras that are available in the world of online poker. “

Meanwhile, after doing some research I find out some info on this “coach/pro” that may prove that he has not proven himself enough to be writing articles posted on big poker sites:

FTP MTT results, http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/ful...9D5DB093E2.html, ROI –40%

Stars MTT results, http://www.officialpokerrankings.com/pok...91A4D181EB.html, ROI –67%

I could not find any other results on his based on his other names listed in his P5 profile.

On sharkscope on FTP he has -$981 profit with ROI –12%.
However, on stars he does have $1,368 profit with ROI 14%

Now, I ask how the hell can he be a “pro” (as in living off of his poker earnings, if he has any)?

Therefore, why the hell would anyone want him as a “coach”, especially for $300/day (4hrs) or $100/hr rate?

It just tilts me hard to see people getting articles published on various poker sites/magazines who might know about the game, but do not have results to support such recognition/job opportunities.


Also, in the testimonials on his site, http://pokerlessons.wordpress.com/te...m-my-students/, the one guy Toadlicker claims to:
“Fox is flat out amazing! I was a solid player before my lessons with Fox, and I was getting really good at beating the 30+3 single table tournaments, but he got my game to the next level. After three lessons I feel like a master of single table tournaments, and I’m beating the 100+9 single tables on 3 different sites with a 24% ROI. I didn’t even know what ROI was before I took lessons with Fox!”
However, this guy has no stats on sharkscope, and only has about 20 party tournys, where his ROI is –66%. Even though he obv might have different names on different sites, but you would think this would be included in testimonials to attract new customers.

Anyways, I just wanted to rip this guy or find anymore info bout him because I am curious how he makes a living from poker (as he claims) and how he even has people to coach?

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

Not sure if I got this correctly, but...


these are like 20 MTTs in total. You cant even call this a sample.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

I am not going to argue for or against the results. Actually, I don't know the guy and have only read a couple of his articles. I feel results are not nearly as relevant as you may think.

I have been playing professionally for two years now, but I consider myself a better coach, than I do a player. I have supported myself off earnings as a player, but I think I am much more skilled at coaching. The same goes with pro sports, the best players do not make the best coaches. The best coaches are the one's who understand the game better than most and are able to get the best out of his/her players.

Likewise, the best poker players do not the best coaches. As mentioned, the best poker coaches are the ones capable of indentifying other player's weaknesses, offering solutions and capable of getting the best out of each of his/her clients.

BraveJayhawk

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

yea, my point was that he obv doesn't play often online (live i do not know about), however he is a "coach" for online poker. So how can he be a coach w/o playing often, plus how can he be a "pro" w/o playing often either, just baffling to me, but w/e i guess.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am not going to argue for or against the results. Actually, I don't know the guy and have only read a couple of his articles. I feel results are not nearly as relevant as you may think.



I have been playing professionally for two years now, but I consider myself a better coach, than I do a player. I have supported myself off earnings as a player, but I think I am much more skilled at coaching. The same goes with pro sports, the best players do not make the best coaches. The best coaches are the one's who understand the game better than most and are able to get the best out of his/her players.

Likewise, the best poker players do not the best coaches. As mentioned, the best poker coaches are the ones capable of indentifying other player's weaknesses, offering solutions and capable of getting the best out of each of his/her clients.

BraveJayhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, I understand your argument, just personally (maybe other people agree with me but idk) I think that it will be hard to attract customers w/o having decent result. Also, he said, "I quit my job to play full time about 4 years ago, and haven't looked back." Just by the info (yes I know that there is little info) I dont't see how he accomplished this?

Anyways, I just wanted to throw this out there, was interested in what people thought about the topic.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

I see your point.

However, here is a hypothetical.

When I was living in Kansas, I was part of a very successful group of poker players. I remember many times when one of the members would comment on an Internet player, whom was assumed to be very successful, not playing anymore.

I always offered the same answer: They may have switched sites or playing under a different alias. We were playing exclusively cash games at the time. It was never far-fetched, because I often switched sites or played under a new account with a higher rakeback offer.

Basically, it is difficult to know how one is doing, because it is very easy to slip under the radar.

As for myself, I am going back to school even though I have been quite sucessful in the past couple years. I dominated Party, but have struggled in the post-Party era. Even though I play much smaller than I used to, does not mean I am broke.

I have found it much better to keep an open mind and worry more about yourself than another player. You just don't know in the online poker world. A lot of rumors are flying around. No need to get caught up in them or be more concerned about them than yourself.

BraveJayhawk

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

"I think that it will be hard to attract customers w/o having decent result."

Usually, a poker coach will attract new customers via recommendation of a prior student.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I see your point.

However, here is a hypothetical.

When I was living in Kansas, I was part of a very successful group of poker players. I remember many times when one of the members would comment on an Internet player, whom was assumed to be very successful, not playing anymore.

I always offered the same answer: They may have switched sites or playing under a different alias. We were playing exclusively cash games at the time. It was never far-fetched, because I often switched sites or played under a new account with a higher rakeback offer.

Basically, it is difficult to know how one is doing, because it is very easy to slip under the radar.

As for myself, I am going back to school even though I have been quite sucessful in the past couple years. I dominated Party, but have struggled in the post-Party era. Even though I play much smaller than I used to, does not mean I am broke.

I have found it much better to keep an open mind and worry more about yourself than another player. You just don't know in the online poker world. A lot of rumors are flying around. No need to get caught up in them or be more concerned about them than yourself.

BraveJayhawk

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point. I was just curious is all.
One last note on the subject, if he had good results he would probably want them known to help get new customers?

Thanks again for your input BraveJayhawk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

[ QUOTE ]
if he had good results he would probably want them known to help get new customers?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but it is a difficult subject. You don't want to come across the wrong way, as it is possible actual results may be taken as pitch, rather than the truth. Personally, I share my results from time-to-time, but I always include the games in which I couldn't beat or noteworthy losing streaks I had.

It is bad business to come across as arrogant. If you are are a known accomplished player, your reputation can be a great pitch, but it is completely another to try and convince others. They may not believe you.

It's a fine line, but the best way is a recommendation from a prior student. The results they had are better proof than the amount of money earned as a player.

BraveJayhawk

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

He writes articles for Poker Pro magazine, I've read a few of them but only really remember the most recent one. It was fair, brings up some good points but I'm hoping he was joking about his looking into the soul of the opponent and through his eyes thing...

Anyways, this link was posted in HU forum for the misinformation it caused to one player, apparently one of his first articles. http://www.pocketfives.com/5C57520F-...240CB3E59.aspx

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

On a different subject, I think its kind of hard to compare like NFL or NBA coaching to poker coaching. Because writing articles about bankroll management and such should mean that you have actually implemented them yourself. I know that I do not have a lot of proof that he hasn't, just since there is limited info on the guy (which isn't good info in my opinion), I have to lean towards the fact that he does not implement his writings, which would make it hard for me to find him credible. Also, if a NBA coach wrote an article you would expect him to be successful, however as in the limited, and what I think are not proven, testimonals on his site, I feel that he has not been successfull enough as a "coach" to write such articles, even if they may indeed be decent writings.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

I've never heard of this guy and still haven't read his articles, but

1)most coaches are as good at coaching as poker players are at poker
2)your average pocketfives author is 1.5 steps up from the average pocketfives thread starter

as to him specifically, it sounds like he might post/write better than he plays, which is like 95% of all well educated people, and also that he has SN's not listed on p5's/plays live. it doesn't actually mean he's a bad coach, although I'd bet against him on principle just because it's pocketfives.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

Yea, I'd agree with you on this adan. I'm more or less jealous of the guy [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] lol jk. I am also interested if these coaches who also proclaim to be pros actually make a living off of poker. I would assume that they do, however I have do not have any sources, so I am just mainly curious.

Thanks again for the insightful replies.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

Also, I am mainly making these posts because I belong to Cardrunners, where the pro teachers on there are well respected players in the poker community (and can teach well in my opinion). Which is kind of my point that people normally prefer well known players with good results as a teacher than some guy w/o a lot of results (that we know of). Therefore, it kinda amazes me that people would pay more for a services of someone who is not really known. Seems more of a gamble to invest in this certain poker teaching site, then to invest in Cardrunners or PokerXFactor?

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

once again, someone judges the book by the cover not the content.

anybody even read his freakin article?

imo everything he does for p5s is good work.

but hey, im not a pro or a balla, so my opinion doesnt mean [censored] here

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

If I one or two tabled 100 dollar SNG's I could easily maintain a 25% ROI.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

O RLY!

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

lol oops I should have read more than the last line and not assummed what he was saying...

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I one or two tabled 100 dollar SNG's I could easily maintain a 25% ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

The article is totally wrong about HUsngs, that is all I meant by posting the article.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

My point is that this guy (or others doing what this guy does too) should not be writing extensive poker strategy articles unless they have proven themselves in the poker community, even if the article is very well written.

You may counter my opinion by saying "Well, there are very good journalists who write about baseball all the time without proving themselves in baseball?"

To this type of statement let me say that most of the time these professional journalists are not writing articles that provide extensive strategies for lets say winning a baseball game. Most of the time these journalists are simply giving a review on a certain game or topic and are not providing strategy.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

Fox has a lot of different names on different sites. I'm a member is his site bc I joined for only $50 for the whole year. Mos tof his money comes from ring games.

His videos are pretty good but he only posts like one a month and he wants $130 for a year membership now!! I won't be renewing bc of the lack of updates. I like his site bc he has a decent amount of HORSE and Omaha vids which are my favorite.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

Don't shoot me, but its akin to asking whether you would want Howard Lederer or Phil Ivey for a coach.

Both have shown success, but Ivey far more then Lederer, but I would much prefer to have Howard as teacher then Ivey.

I'm sure Ivey can 'teach' but he does not come across as a guy who would have the patience to teach.

I could be wrong.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

You can't compare having Lederer teach you over Ivey to lets say Fox teach you over any well respected online winner (even if Fox might have more "patience"). My reason being that even though Ivey has more success then Lederer, both have had a great deal of success overall. Whereas, I have not seen proof that Fox has any kind of success.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

Fox plays cash games for the most part, If you want proof of his ability, then why don’t you just play with him? Plays mainly under the names Mr.Fox, Mr_Fox, fedge, and VulpesVulpes.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

I thought I had posted a long reply, but apparently it didn't work. The gist of it was -

1. Your sample sizes are ridiculously small when you look up my stats on a few places. The largest sample size, my sharkscope on Stars, has me as a winner.

2. I play cash games, and my reputation is as a fixed-limit specialist, though members of my site will tell you that my no-limit and SNG videos are also very good, and I have made a significant portion of my living at the no-limit tables.

3. I think questioning "name pros" is a good thing, many of them are not nearly as good as people believe. I know that there are players who have big names on 2p2 and/or are ranked on P5's who are not even winning players. I would however question respectfully, and refrain from attacking. Attacking just makes you look a petty jerk, especially when it turns out the guy whose tournament record you are attacking is in fact a cash game player.

As far as wondering how I make a living, my night last night was a $33 Rebuy on Full Tilt where I just missed the money, a satellite to the $400k today which I won a seat in, and a $50/$100 fixed-limit Omaha 8 table where I made around $4,500 dollars.

Not a bad night overall, though I think I could have been a little more patient in the rebuy, instead of coming over the top of a guy preflop who couldn't get away from AJ for all his chips.

Here are the first and last hands from my Omaha session, since I'm guessing a guy like the OP wants proof.

Full Tilt Poker Game #2259772308: Table Link (heads up) - $50/$100 - Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 20:38:07 ET - 2007/04/21
noparty has 5 seconds left to act
noparty posts the small blind of $25
VulpesVulpes posts the big blind of $50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to VulpesVulpes [9c 6d 7h 6s]
noparty calls $25
VulpesVulpes checks
*** FLOP *** [7c Ad 5h]
VulpesVulpes bets $50
noparty folds
Uncalled bet of $50 returned to VulpesVulpes
VulpesVulpes mucks
VulpesVulpes wins the pot ($99.50)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $100 | Rake $0.50
Board: [7c Ad 5h]
Seat 1: noparty (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: VulpesVulpes (big blind) collected ($99.50), mucked

Full Tilt Poker Game #2260142728: Table Link (heads up) - $50/$100 - Limit Omaha Hi/Lo - 21:32:29 ET - 2007/04/21
Seat 1: noparty ($1,107)
Seat 2: VulpesVulpes ($9,099)
VulpesVulpes posts the small blind of $25
noparty posts the big blind of $50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to VulpesVulpes [Jh Kh 6c 4c]
VulpesVulpes raises to $100
noparty calls $50
*** FLOP *** [Jd Jc 9d]
noparty checks
VulpesVulpes: Tourneys on break, back in 5 minutes
VulpesVulpes bets $50
noparty raises to $100
VulpesVulpes calls $50
*** TURN *** [Jd Jc 9d] [9c]
noparty bets $100
VulpesVulpes calls $100
*** RIVER *** [Jd Jc 9d 9c] [Js]
noparty checks
VulpesVulpes bets $100
noparty: that is gross
noparty calls $100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
VulpesVulpes shows [Jh Kh 6c 4c] (four of a kind, Jacks)
noparty mucks
VulpesVulpes wins the pot ($799.50) with four of a kind, Jacks
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $800 | Rake $0.50
Board: [Jd Jc 9d 9c Js]
Seat 1: noparty (big blind) mucked [8s Qd 9s 7d] - HI: three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 2: VulpesVulpes (small blind) showed [Jh Kh 6c 4c] and won ($799.50) with HI: four of a kind, Jacks

I understand that you have seen no proof that I have had success, but why you would attack me and seem to express the belief that I am a charlatan rather than looking a little deeper, I do not know. I'm not hiding anywhere, it's easy to find me and find out about me by asking about me on forums where people know who I am.

And Ghidora is right, if you really want to prove that I am no good at what I do feel free to find me, the screen names he listed are correct. I play a lot of places, but 30/60 Hold Em on Bodog is the most likely place to find me.

As for your association with Cardrunners, I have always found Taylor Caby to be respectable and respectful. I don't know him well but he has always appeared to be a man of class to me, something you could learn from. There is more than enough business out there for us training sites to share and get along, and I have only felt a similar attitude from the other training sites I have been in contact with.

You don't represent the Cardrunners folks, nor can I imagine they would ever want you to represent them. I'm glad you are learning things there, they have some fine players and teachers working for them, but disparaging me and my site does nothing but get us mentioned on a forum where neither I nor my business partner ever post. Thanks for the press.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If I one or two tabled 100 dollar SNG's I could easily maintain a 25% ROI.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'd make a large enough prop bet for it to be worth your time to try to prove this.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

I would take that prop bet as well. I think it could have been done a few years ago, but 25% at the $100 level and higher is VERY tough now on a site where they are running frequently.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

I thought Mr. Fox def could have been a cash game player, just from him posting articles on P5, and from the very little info on his site, I thought he was a tourny player. I was only questoning his tourny play (which might indeed be good). Im sure hes a good player, just I would still prefer to see articles on P5 by bigger name players (even if infact they obv don't win as much as it appears).
By this I mean, id much rather prefer an article by Taylor than you (nothing against you personally, just my own opinion and Im sure most ppl would prefer this too)

Again, ty for all the poster's insights [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

Also, Mr. Fox, it wasn't easy to find much info on you...obv compared bigger name players with big results (even if they don't make as much money as what it seems)

The only reson I was attacking you was because I feel like there are better coaching sites and articles out there. I do give you props as you have done much more than me (and most ppl) in the poker community.

Re: Beat: Pocket Fives Home Page Articles (poker articles in general)
 

also, Mr. Fox is deep in the FTP 400k, hope he takes it down [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]