How to Balance WW games.
 

I am in the process of writing up a theme idea for an Average Speed game I'd like to mod sometime later.

It's generally accepted that a 13er

3 wolves - 1 seer (n0 peek) - 9 vanillas is balanced (?)

I think.

Once games get larger and more complicated is there a formula for working out how to balance things fairly?

Are there any resources I can get pointed towards that detail how to setup games so the balance is goot.

Obv you can just rand the game and trial and error through a bunch of scenarios to work out how long any given setup could last but.

What makes a game balanced?

What effect do various Mish Mash style extra power roles have on a game?

And how long should a game run for at most? 2weeks a month?
(assuming 12 hour days & 12 hour nights)

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Wow, great questions Matrix! I've always wondered about this myself...

Mark

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]

13 - 3 / 1 / 9 peek
15 - 3 / 1 / 11 no peek
17 - 4 / 1 / 12 peek
19 - 4 / 1 / 14 no peek
21 - 5 / 1 / 15 peek (this is debatable)
23 - 5 / 2 / 16 no peek
25 - 6 / 2 / 17 peek
27 - 6 / 2 / 19 no peek

that seems right to me... 3 * 2 / 1 * 2 / 9 * 2 + 1 (compared to a 13 man turbo) there's an extra villager but no peek

------

around 21 it gets weird whether you should add the 2nd seer or not yet

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I should put this in the sticky...

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Durron,

could you also link the advanced village/wolf/seer posts in the sticky too. I can't find any advanced villager ones.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

matrix,

For ordinary games, durron's chart is good.

For special games with powerful characters, just to use a cliche, it's more art than science. Sometimes it's pretty straightforward - vote buyers, an extra kill, and so forth. Other times it isn't (pumpkin, evil seer, neutral characters).

I would recommend looking at games in the past for characters that are similar to yours. Read them and ask players who played in them how much that role impacted the game. Especially useful is the perspective of the person who played the role. One important thing to note is that they often won't do what you expect. A good example of this is the Tokyo!! character in the anniversary game that just finished. He had to power to one time make himself unlynchable. We expected him to wait until some point in the game when he had a little heat or really wanted to make a point and then use it but he used it immediately on day 1 to clear himself as a villager. So try to think of other ways that players would use the character. Naturally, you're probably not going to come up with whatever convoluted strategy that luckay or nich would come up with but thinking it through a little more will be hugely beneficial.

Roles like Tokyo above are particularly difficult. They are powers that come in extremely handy if a certain situation arises, but are quite weak if it doesn't. If you can, it will help overall game balance if the special power helps to balance the game. So maybe some village power that is quite useful when there are a lot of wolves relative to villagers but could otherwise not be good (something that randomly kills people would be roughly what I'm talking about here). Otherwise you have to do some sort of EV like calculation and determine how likely you think such a situation will come up.

I think many game mods have reached the same conclusion. If you are going to err in any direction, favor the wolves.

I think I'll make a modding post later with more thoughts.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Power roles should never be greater than 1/5th of the village.

If they are, you better have either extra night kills or extra vote-buying evils.

The most important power I had as metsandfinsfan was the power to say "I am metsandfinsfan."

Make sure village actually has a hard time winning by clearing x villagers.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

25% of the players as wolves is pretty standard. This means that for the game to be close at the end, the village will need about a 50% rate of lynching wolves. (50% of the players in the game are eaten at night, the remaining players that get lynched are evenly mixed as wolves and villagers.)

Obviously, the village is in bad shape if it just lynches at random. That's why there are seers to give some help, and villagers can make reads to help them out - which is especially powerful later in the game.

From past experience we know how much to account for villagers using their brains and we know about how many peeks to expect from a seer. Confirmed villagers are really the key to the game. If you are designing a themed game, you need to remember that each village power role is essentially the same as a bonus seer peek in addition to whatever other powers they have. The more village power roles you have, the more you need to weaken the seers to avoid the village getting any easy lock on the game. To achieve balance, you want to try to estimate each character's power in common terms. For example, a one-shot vigilante is basically the same as giving the seer a bonus peek and giving the village a bonus lynch. If you're starting from a standard 17 player game and add the one-shot vigilante, then you should remove the seer's n0 peek and reduce the game to 16 players.

Giving bonus powers to the wolves may seem nice, but keep in mind that what seems balanced at the start of the game may not be balanced by d3. There have been some games where if the wolves lose a few players early, then their remaining powers are too weak to overcome all of the village powers... but if the wolves all stay alive a few days, they can use their powers to just steamroll their way through the rest of the game. Another side effect of this is that the wolves have to take more care to keep their strongest members alive, which can give the village much more information to work with later in the game if things have stayed even. And on a final note, if the wolf power is something like a double vote, then there is a good chance that they will end up being outed at some point or at least have their identity narrowed way down. Don't give the wolves powers which are going to end up hurting them.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Basically, the more power roles you add to the game, the more variance you add.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Here's a question...

What is the impact toward balancing a game if you have a godfather on the wolf team?

Or an angel on the village side?

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question...

What is the impact toward balancing a game if you have a godfather on the wolf team?

[/ QUOTE ]
It helps a lot. Definitely setup-specific, though.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Does a godfather balance a seer angel combo?
Or is a godfather, angel/seer, roleblocker more balanced?

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

I'd say in a ~24 player game...

+1 Angel, -3 Villagers
+1 Seer, -5 Villagers
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Godfather, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Roleblocker, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf, +2-4 Villager

+1 Confirmed Villager, -2 Villager

(each time you add a confirmable power role, knock off two vanillagers)

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

there could be some sort of point system

like
in average speeds with 25 players, 6 wolves, 2 seers, 17 villagers


Count a villager as a point
Count a seer as five points
Count wolves as four points each

27 (village) vs 24 (wolf)

does that extrapolate well?
13-player...3 wolf, 1 seer, 9 villager

Pro-village: 9+5 = 14
Wolf: 3*4 = 12


21-Player...5 wolf, 1 seer, 15 villager

Pro-Village: 15+5 = 20
Wolf: 5*4 = 20


maybe?
it's like chess! wheeee



here's our 9-player turbos...

1 seer = 5 points
6 village = 6 points
2 wolf = 8 points

11 v 8
close enough?

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

throw in roleblockers at 6 points, godfathers at 6 points, angels (power variance) at 4-6 points, confirmable villagers (such as masonry) as one point for each additional confirmable (so two masons = 2 points)

zomg genius

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say in a ~24 player game...

+1 Angel, -3 Villagers
+1 Seer, -5 Villagers
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Godfather, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf-Promotion-To-Roleblocker, +0-2 Villager
+1 Wolf, +2-4 Villager

+1 Confirmed Villager, -2 Villager

(each time you add a confirmable power role, knock off two vanillagers)

[/ QUOTE ]

Great info Luckay! Thank you.

So to answer my question:
24 person game with a seer, angel, roleblocker, GF
needs 2 more wolves to be balanced (-5 + -3 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 3 = 0)

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Quick and dirty analysis of ELECTION:

[ QUOTE ]
***Roles***


There are 33 players in this game. 9 are Werewolves and 24 are villagers.


Villager Power Roles

2 Seers -> Standard seer role. Each peeks every night and both got n0 peeks.

Roleblocker -> May choose to block one player from their night action each night.

Ballot Box Stuffer -> This villager's vote counts for 3 each day instead of 1

Reporter -> May investigate one player each night to see if they are home, ie if they have any night action or not.

Kidnapper -> If elected (lynched), he may choose one player to come to the capital (die) with him.

Vote Buyer -> May choose one player each evening to move their vote to a player of his choice. Must pm Jared by 10:10pm.

Dictator -> May choose to take over the electorate one day during the game. Must pm Jared by 10:10pm on the day he wishes to exercise his power and then post his decision in the thread by 10:30pm. He may use this power even if ineligible to receive votes. Once the power is used, he is a normal villager for the rest of the game, but will be an eligible villager who also has the right to pass down his legacy like any other eligible villager.

Yang -> This villager is tied to the wolf Ying. If Ying is elected (lynched), then Yang must go to the capital with him. If Yang is lynched/killed/assassinated, then Ying does not die. Also, if Ying is assassinated, Yang does not die. If Ying and Yang both vote for the same player, their combined votes count as 5, not 2.

Baker -> Each night, starting n0, he bakes one cupcake. Any day, he may choose to use some/all of his baked goods to move votes from rand()

players who did not vote for him onto him. He must pm Jared by 10:10 to use this power that day. No matter what he does, he always bakes exactly one each night. He may use this power to get votes even if he is ineligible, but it will not give him further eligibility and legacy power unless he actually makes it onto the electorate.

Assassin -> Has the option to make one kill per day/night cycle. However, he may only kill someone who has been on the electorate at some point during the game, as assassins kill high profile people. If he doesn't make a kill during a cycle, they do not build up. Day/night cycle starts with d1, so d1/n1 is the first opportunity, then d2/n2, d3/n3, etc. This means he could kill in n1 and d2 if he wishes, but then couldn't kill again until at least d3. He wins with the village like all other villagers.

2 Innkeepers -> Angel/Doctor role. Can protect themselves. If protects a seer, then they put the seer and one other rand() villager into 2 of their 3 'safe rooms.' If wolves try to kill either of these 2 players, they are protected. However, if wolves specify that their target is the seer and the person is the seer, then they will tear apart one of these 3 rooms. So 1/3 chance of killing seer, 1/3 of killing rand() villager and 1/3 of no kill. The rooms take 3 days to rebuild, so if they attack a 2nd night in a row, they will kill either the seer or rand() villager for sure. However, if they specify the target is a seer and it's not a seer, then no night kill occurs, even if the player wasn't protected.


Voting Bloc -> This bloc is composed of 4 villagers who do not know each other's identities. If all 4 vote for the same person, their vote power doubles, so 8 instead of 4. Also, one member is the 'head' of the bloc and is allowed to send one pm via mod to the other 3 players once during the game. These 4 may not speak to one another outside of the thread and the mods will not confirm who the members are. They will reveal as 'voting bloc' or 'head voting bloc' upon death/sight.






Wolf Power Roles

Evil Vote Buyer -> May choose one player each evening to move their vote to a player of his choice. Must pm Jared by 10:10pm.

Evil Box Stuffer -> This wolf's vote counts for 2 each day instead of 1

Evil Baker -> Each night, starting n0, he bakes one cupcake. Any day, he may choose to use some/all of his baked goods to move votes from rand() players who did not vote for him onto him. He must pm Jared by 10:10 to use this power that day. No matter what he does, he always bakes exactly one each night. He may use this power to get votes even if he is ineligible, but it will not give him further eligibility and legacy power unless he actually makes it onto the electorate.

Ying -> Tied to the villager Yang. If elected (lynched), then he takes Yang with him (kills yang). He cannot be harmed by his connection to Yang no matter how Yang dies. Also, if Ying and Yang vote for the same player, their combined vote power is 5, not 2.

Evil Roleblocker -> May choose to block one player from their night action each night.


***Roles***

[/ QUOTE ]



let's start with the good team

2 Seers = 10 points
Roleblocker = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Ballot Box Stuffer = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Reporter = 3 points (weak seer)
Vote Buyer = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Dictator = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Yang = 1 point (confirmed villager, but dies with Ying)
Baker = 2 points (confirmed villager)
Assassin = 3 points (vigilante worth 3 points?)
2 Innkeepers = 12 points (powerful angel)
Voting Bloc of 4 = 8 points (4 confirmed villagers)
7 Vanillagers = 7 points


Pro-Village = 54 points



Wolves

Evil Vote Buyer: this is like an extra wolf & 1/2 in terms of voting power. 7 points
Evil Box Stuffer: this is like an extra wolf in terms of voting power. 6 points
Evil Baker: this is like an extra wolf in terms of voting power. 6 points
Ying: takes down a villager when he dies. 6 points
Evil Roleblocker: 6 points
2 Vanillevils: 4*2 = 8 points


Wolves = 39 points




don't know if this actually has any practical use
just wanted to do it for fun

the game was obviously imbalanced in favor of village, so I decided to start here

is a 15 point difference huge? Probably.
is the fact that the number of confirmable villagers' values being exponentially valuable understated? yeah. Did I not even include any point values for minor villager powers? Nope, but I'm sure that should factor in too.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great info Luckay! Thank you.

So to answer my question:
24 person game with a seer, angel, roleblocker, GF
needs 2 more wolves to be balanced (-5 + -3 + 1 + 1 + 3 + 3 = 0)

[/ QUOTE ]

this is all theoretical right now and late in night ramblings of a madman

we're talking a game of:

3 Seers
1 Angel
12 Villagers

Roleblocker
Godfather
6 Wolves


yeah, I guess that looks fair
a lot more variance than an average speed game though. Each seer knocked off is like knocking off five villagers. According to my point system. Which may or may not even be good. Who knows...

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

I think the point system is a great idea. We need to analyze games that were balanced and come up with the proper point value for each role.

We can do a CHOOSE YOUR OWN ROLES game where each team has X points to spend on whatever roles they want.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

I wonder how Choose Your Own Adventure fits into the point system

Evil Team:

[ QUOTE ]
Evil Power Roles

<u>The Assassin</u>: IP: Poison - At night the assassin can choose to poison one character. This character will lose his powers the first night, be silenced the second night, and die the third. The assassin starts the game with one vial of poison.
-The Assassin will gain an assortment of poisons and skills that could result in the hindrance and even death of party members.

<u>The Temptress</u>: IP:Seduce - Chooses 1 player per night. She blocks this player's event for the night.
-The Temptress will gain abilities in line with role blocking and event blocking.

<u>The Illusionist</u>: IP:Alter Aspect - Peek returns villager. As standard "Godfather" powers.
-The Illusionist will gain abilities that allow him to cast illusions to disguise himself, others, and the world around him.

<u>The Warlock</u>: IP: Polymorph Other: Turns target player into animal for one day. That player can not talk or vote.
-The Warlock is a mixed bag character. He will gain a vast assortment of one time use sorceries.

<u>The Saboteur</u>: IP: Snare: Will set a trap on one of the event choices. If the group chooses that option, they will fall into his trap. He is NOT in night chat, and will gain new kinds of traps as the game continues. <u>He receives the event choices the night before, and must set his trap on one of them before the thread opens.</u>

And 3 vanillaevils


[/ QUOTE ]


Assassin can take out additional guys. Let's say +3 in power to that. Assassin is 7 points.

Temptress is 6 points. (roleblocker)
Illusionist is 7 points since he can disguise others too. supergodfather.
Warlock is 7 points. can take out additional guys.
Saboteur is 5 points?

3 vanillaevils. 3*4 = 12


Evil team: 44 points


[ QUOTE ]
Good Power Roles

<u>The Bard</u>:
IP:Persuasion:When voting on day events only, his vote counts as triple.
-The Bard will gain abilities that effect the voting of events and lynches.

<u>The Priest</u>:
IP: Protection from Evil: He may protect a player each night from night kill at a 50% rate. His night decisions may enhance or dilute this power.
-The Priest will gain protection and curative abilities. He may also gain extra power against the forces of evil.

<u>The Scout</u>:
IP: Reconnaissance:Learns in advance what options the group will have for the next day's event. He may choose one to investigate and will learn the result if the group chooses that course of action.
IP: Journal: PMs the mod with his scouting report each evening. In the event of his death, a player will find his journal and share it with the group.
-The Scout will learn abilities that allow him foresight into events and acquired powers of other players.

<u>The Veteran</u>:
IP: Steel Resolve: Votes against the Veteran will only count as 2/3 of a vote.
- The Veteran will learn abilities that may enhance his toughness, power, or battle prowess.

<u>The Fortuneteller</u>:
IP: Divination: As standard seer peek. One per night.
-The Fortuneteller will gain abilities that might allow her to see into the future, communicate telepathically, and other powers of the mind.

<u>The Apprentice</u>:
IP:Divination Studies: Receives a peek every third night, simple good/evil. In the event the fortune teller dies, learns half of his peeks, determined by rand() (rand is from among all peeks, living and dead), and becomes a full seer. In the event the priest dies before the fortuneteller, his interest in the mystical world may lead him to study some protective and medicinal texts as well.
-The apprentice will gain abilities that make him a better student, but only as long as the Fortuneteller remains alive.

21 Vanillagers


[/ QUOTE ]

Bard was like a confirmed villager. +2
Scout was like a confirmed villager. +2
Veteran was like a confirmed villager. +2
Priest = Angel. +6
Fortuneteller = Seer. +6
Apprentice = Seer Jr. +5
21 Vanillagers = +21



Good team: 43 points


44 points v 43 points

who knows
maybe the point system has some value to it

CYOA rocked btw and seemed extremely balanced [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Hehe.. I think this is where the "art" side of WW game design really comes into play...

It's nice having this data.. I can now more easily quantify the impact of the village losing a seer n1 etc...
Or a villager fake claiming and getting lynched...

J/K.. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

I wonder if POG ANNIVERSARY WAS BALANCED ZOMG
DRAMA


[ QUOTE ]
Village:
fnord_too &amp; chuckleslovakian - Seers. Both have n0 peeks, and both know what their name is.

DustinG - When a seer dies, he becomes the new seer.

Shortline - Can protect one player from being killed at night. Protection is 100% effective on vanillagers, 50% effective on village power characters.

GetThere1Time - PMs mods at the end of the day with one name. They change the named player's vote to the player of their choice. If both vote buyers choose the same person then that person's vote is simply nullified.

lastchance - Standard hooker role. Names one player each night and that player cannot perform night action.

Tokyo!! - May prevent own lynch once. They do so by posting in thread "ZOMG I AM TOKYO!!. I CANNOT BE LYNCHED TODAY" before 30 minutes prior to night falling. Anybody whose vote is on him may change their vote as votes on him are useless for that day. Voting is otherwise normal for that day. Anyone who fakes Tokyo!! will be modkilled.

metsandfinsfan - Is desperately seeking kyro's mother. Names one player every night. If they are kyro's mother, then she is converted to the village side and they form a permanent masonry. See her role below for more information.

ScottHoward (versions 1.0 and 2.0) - One user who has control of two accounts. Both gimmicks are otherwise considered vanillagers, and both accounts have a vote. If he claims while both accounts are alive, both accounts will be modkilled.

Luckayluck - Has one gun with 3 bullets. Any night he may take as many shots as he has bullets. Each shot has a 50% chance of being effective.

dmk - may name one player every night. Has masonry with this player for that night. May not name the same player twice. on death is revealed as "pogger".

wdcbooks - Flying Great Pumpkin. Twist: has the choice of "major effect" or "minor effect". Major effect: uses the random target algorithm first used in Mish Mash 5. Examples: king, death. Minor effect: always hits the person targeted. Examples: Target's vote counts for 2, or Target's vote counts for 0. Peeks as "pogger", dies as "Flying Great Pumpkin". Pumpkin must always choose a target every night or a negative effect for the village (or positive effect for the mods) will be randed.

4 Vanillager


[/ QUOTE ]

Chuckles, Fnord: 2 Seers = 11 Points
Dustin: Seer Jr. = 5 Points
Shortline: Bastardized Angel = 5 Points
GetThere1Time: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
Lastchance: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
Tokyo!!: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
Mets: Confirmed Villager, but could leave game = 1.5 Points
SH1.0: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
SH2.0: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
LuckayLuck: Vigilante = 3 Points
DMK: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
WDCBooks: Pumpkin?! = 3 Points
4 Vanillagers = 4 Points
(KyrosMother) = 0.5 Points

TOTAL PRO-VILLAGE: 45 Points


[ QUOTE ]
Neutrals:
Kyro - is a serial killer. May kill one person per night. Wins by being the last man standing. Loses if either side wins before he does. See kyro's mother for more info. Immune to night death from the mods (unless Kyro's Mother is turned by metsandfinsfan), in which case he can be nightkilled as normal. If he is nightkilled and KM has not yet been converted the kill fails and kyro is told he was targeted for death by the wolves. If he is converted by KyrosMother before she has been found by metsandfinsfan, he loses his nightkill until the game reaches must-lynch but he does not exit the game. In addition, every night may name a player and form a masonry with them but cannot choose any player twice.

KyrosMother - Trying to make her son a better person. If she is a neutral (mets hasn't peeked her) then her goal is to stop kyro from killing everyone. She submits a name every night, if that person is kyro then she has won and exits the game, and kyro loses his nightkill ability UNTIL the game has reached must-lynch. If she has been peeked by mets then she is converted to the village team and is trying to convert kyro's power so that it is only used for good. If she names him then kyro is converted to the village but keeps up his killing ways. If she is converted by mets and subsequently converts kyro then she and mets both win and they both leave the game (but kyro doesn't obviously).

Zurvan - Has blinders. Given 3 random names at the start of the game. His goal is to get one of those 3 lynched. If he lynches one of those 3 he gets 1 POG$, if he fails he must pay 1$POG. If the 3 targets are alive then the next day then he may replace one of them with any new player of his choice. If one or more are dead then he takes everyone from the previous day's list the next day. Must submit list for the new day by noon. Wins by having a positive balance at time of death.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neutrals are pretty much neutral
KM is like +0.5 points to village since sometimes she'll get converted and become a confirmed villager



[ QUOTE ]
Wolves:
JaredL - Names one player in the game within 30 minutes of nightfall. That player's vote is changed to the player of his choice. If both vote buyers choose the same person then that person's vote is simply nullified. Peeks &amp; Dies as "evil mod".

Durron597 - Peeks as "evil mod". However, upon death he dies as "pogger". He is always a villager, even if he's not.

VoraciousReader - Standard prostitute role. Names one player each night and that player has no night action. Peeks &amp; dies as evil mod

Matrix - Knows identity of the mods and wins with them. Is not part of night chat and the village doesn't need to kill him to win. Peeks as villager, dies as "matrix". Is not known to mafia. If they target him for death then nothing happens and the mafia are simply told their kill failed. The traitor is told that he was targeted by the wolves.

xorbie - Evil Seer. Dies as "xorbie", peeks as "xorbie". Does NOT get an n0 peek.

Madtown - Vanilla evil. Dies as "evil mod".

Mat Sklansky - Has two powers:
1) Once per game, takes over another users account. That user may not post for the entire day and loses their night action if they have one. Demon has full control of account in posting and voting in thread. Does not, however, get the player's vote buying or other daytime powers.
2) may name one player every night. Has masonry with this player for that night. May not name the same player twice.
Peeks &amp; Dies as "evil mod".

Madtown has been added to the game - vanilla wolf.

Iron_yuppie - Told he is a villager, but peeks as wolf and is written up on death as wolf. Wolves know his identity. Wins with village. Dies as "evil mod".

soah - Told he is a villager. If he is nightkilled by the wolves he becomes an evil mod and wins with the mods. Peeks and dies as "evil mod". If he is not converted he peeks and dies as "pogger".

[/ QUOTE ]

JaredL: evil vote buyer. 6 Points
Durron: confusaments wolf. 5 Points
VR: Roleblocker. 6 Points
Matrix: "Traitor"...hmmm... 2 Points?
Xorbie: Evil Seer. 7 Points
Madtown: Vanilla. 4 Points
Mat Sklansky: The takeover could be like a kill and worse. Let's make it 5-6 Points...ehhh..5 Points.


Iron_Yuppie: Miller?? Gee, I dunno. +1 Point? Confusionaments?

Soah: Convertible Villager? Gee, I dunno. +1 Point?


WOLVES: 37 Points


45 vs 37 in favor of village


just goes to show that confirmable roles can really boost village points

or maybe my point system is still in the beta

who knows

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Luckay's Rough WW Balance Point Value System (Beta):


Villager: 1 Point
Confirmed Villager: 2 Point

Seer (depends on size of game): 5-7 Points*
Angel (depends on size of game, strength of angel): 4-6* Points
Vigilante: 3 Points


Jester: +1 Point towards evil due to chaos
Serial Killer: 0 Points (Neutral EV, and is actually a natural mechanism to balance games in itself)
Cyradis: 0 Points (similar to serial killer mentality, except an even more extreme mechanism to balance games)


Wolf: 4 Points
Evil Vote Buyer: 6 Points
Roleblocker: 6 Points
Godfather: 6 Points
Evil Seer: 7 Points
Extra Kill: 1-2 Points
Presence of a Convertible Villager: 1-2 Points

make Good Team = Evil Team in points for a balanced game, in theory




*9-13 player games:

Seer = 5 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 4 Points

15-19 Player Games:

Seer = 6 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 5 Points

21-27 Player Games:

Seers = 6.5 Points each
Angel = 6 Points

29+ Player Games

Seers = 7 Points Each
Angel = 7 Points

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

I'm just happy your point system agrees with the game outcomes...

BTW, A point system works awesome with bidding in the Bridge card game so you do have some precedence that point based models can work... (OK it's apples and oranges, but it sounds good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

OK, So now you're saying a Seer+Angel=GF+RB..

I do like the symmetry...

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seer+Angel=GF+RB..

[/ QUOTE ]

my intuition tells me that seer + angel to balance out GF + RB is definitely a no-go, seer + angel is significantly more powerful, and that I have either overvalued GF/RB or undervalued seer/angel

probably undervaluation of seer/angel

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

actually, "it depends", probably
mostly on size of game

seer + angel &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; GF + RB in big games
seer + angel may be close to value to GF + RB given a weak angel in a small game (9-13 players)

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Didn't read all of luckay's stuff there but a key component as far as seer + angel vs godfather is how likely the angel's protection is to work. Some games, especially early on, it was 100% on everybody. This doesn't really work because the seer can come out day 1, get angel protection and get picks until the angel dies. It's usually 25, 50 or 75% effective on power roles. Which ratio it is is important.

I personally don't think the godfather directly does much. Think about what has to happen for that to be of use. Basically you need the godfather to be peeked and for the seer to clear the godfather. Even then everybody knows that there is a godfather so it doesn't mean a ton. If you look at the anniversary game, durron was peeked and died with the villager writeup. The entire point of this character is that his death will cast suspicion on the seer. This game everything took place exactly as it needed to to get that and everyone still 100% believed the seer. Part of it was some terrible fake seering by the evils, but that everybody knows the role exists makes it not as directly valuable.

The main benefit of the godfather for the mafia isn't the hidden peek, but that a little bit of doubt is cast on all of the seers peeks. They are not 100% clear even if he comes out and is then confirmed to be the seer. It's a bit hard to quantify this. If a would-be confirmed villager is lynched that is absolutely huge for the wolves. However, this still isn't very likely as the village is more likely to go after non confirmeds who are more likely wolves before being forced to look at the list, or wait until all but the godfather are dead and then consider everyone fair game.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

I think there might be other problems...

In a 13 player 9/1/3 game, I get

Wolves = 12 points
Villagers = 6 (seer)+ 8 (other villagers) = 14 points...

Wolves seem under valued.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
actually, "it depends", probably
mostly on size of game

seer + angel &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; GF + RB in big games
seer + angel may be close to value to GF + RB given a weak angel in a small game (9-13 players)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh so you need a C*Number Players term in your equation.
I just hope you don't need to go second order (C1+C2*n)...

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

A humorous look at Dungeon I: The most imbalanced game of all time (not a dig at sighing, it was a completely new genre, and balancing was extremely hard). But looking back, and it is of course easy to look back, this is what I get:


Good Side;
[ QUOTE ]
Cleric (3): Each night, can optionally heal one Adventurer (no effect on a Monster). The first time the power is used, it heals 10 points of damage. Each subsequent use heals 10 points more, until after five healing attempts there is no more healing power left (so the final heal is for 50 points). Can use the power on himself. However, one of the Clerics (and we're not sure which) has been forsaken by his god. Any healing attempt he makes will instead inflict the appropriate amount of damage to the targeted player, including Monsters.

Druid (1): Can use each of the following abilities once per game, at night, no more than one ability per night:
--* Blanket of Health: All non-Monsters gain 10 health. The use of this spell is announced publically, but does not reveal who cast it.
--* Invisibility: Take no damage from voting-melee the next day. (like most other spells, the use of this spell is not announced publically)
--* Armor of Thorns: Anyone attacking you that night takes an amount of damage equal to the damage they do to you. Does not work on Pestilence attacks or pre-existing poisons.
--* Nature's Uprising: All Monsters lose 10 health. Using this ability drains you of all power, and you can no longer use other abilities. The use of this spell is announced publically, but does not reveal who cast it.

Paladin (2): Each night, can optionally protect another player (even a Monster) from all damage taken, but he himself will take half the damage amount. He can protect himself in this way, and thus take only half damage from attacks. He may choose not to use this power, in which case he himself is protected during the next day instead, and he takes only half damage from that day's voting-melee. If two paladins protect the same person, they protect in sequence, determined randomly.

Barbarian (4): 2 start with 100 health points, and 2 start with 150 health points. Each night, can optionally choose to attack another player with his axe, dealing 0, 10 or 30 points of damage (randomly determined).

Wizard (2): Starts with 60 health points. Can use each of the following abilities once per game, at night, no more than one ability per night:
--* Lightning Bolt: Smite another player with a lightning bolt, dealing 50 points of damage.
--* Illusory Twin: Avoid all night effects aimed at you.
--* Magic Missile: Hit three players for 10 damage each.
--* Control Monster: Select a player and attempt to control them as a Monster. If they are not a Monster, nothing happens. If they are a Monster, you learn their role and they learn your role. Additionally, there is a 50% chance that the Monster will get loose when you first attempt to control him, in which case you will be viciously devoured (killing you, and revealing their nature in public).

Diviner (1): Seer. Learns the class or monster-name of one selected target per night. The diviner DOES get a Night 0 peek. (this is a change, both to the count -- only one seer -- and to the night 0 peeking)

Mystic (1): Starts with 80 health points. Learns which Monster makes each night's attack (by monster-name, not which player). Senses any spell cast by a Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Conjurer, though not who cast it nor what the target was.

Monk (1): Starts with 80 health points. Does two attacks (on the same target) during voting-melee. Automatically avoids one attack on him (if any) during voting-melee. If undamaged during any night phase, the Monk meditates and recovers 20 health at dawn.

Thief (1): If attacked by any player at night, has a 25% chance of avoiding the attack and learning that he was targeted. Each attack is avoided separately. Additionally his sharp night senses allow him a 25% chance of learning the identity of each person who attempted to attack him, but not their role or specific damage amount. These powers apply only to abilities that deal damage, and do not apply to attacks that target more than one person at a time (pestilence, fire, magic missile).

Assassin (1): Once per game, the assassin may make an attack on another player for 100 points of damage. This attack can come during the day by sending a PM to the moderator. If the attack is made in daylight, the assassin's role is revealed publically, but the target fights back fiercely, reducing the assassin to one hit point remaining. If made at night, nothing is revealed. The attack may not be made within ten minutes of nightfall, when the players are gathering towards the evening's melee.


[/ QUOTE ]

Cleric (3) - sort of like 2 weak seers actually, along with some semi-doctor-ish-qualities, since the monsters didn't know if they would be targetted by a heal with a cleric. The forsaken one I'll give 3 points, the clerics I'll give 5 points each. 13 Points

Druid (1): Coolish. Confirmed Villager, with lots of useful abilities. 3 Points

Paladin (2): 2 extremely powerful Angels. 2*6 = 12 Points.

Barbarian (4): Actually could confirm themselves easily. Confirmable villagers. 2*4 = 8 Points.

Wizard (2): The control monster would be like a one-time-seer-peek. Plus lots of cool things. Let's give them 3.5 points each = 7 Points.

Diviner (1): Seer. 6 Points.

Mystic (1): Super-Tracker. 4 Points.

Monk (1): Confirmable Villager. 2 Points.

Thief (1): Villager. 1 Point.

Assassin (1): Vigilante. 3 Points.

Villagers: 59 Points

Evils:

[ QUOTE ]
Abaddon "Destroyer". Has 150 health points. Hits a single target for 100 damage.

Adramelech "Flame". Burns three separate targets for 50 damage each. Must choose exactly three targets, unless there are only two players left.

Vetis "Corruptor". Hits target for either 10 or 30 damage, at random. If the target is killed by this attack, he becomes corrupted into a Lesser Demon, who has no special powers. Note that the corrupted player has the Monster victory condition and joins Monster Chat at night.

Barbas "Pestilence". Hits all non-Monsters for 10 damage each.

Conjurer (1). (NOTE: This role has changed!) Has 60 health points. A human who initially summoned these Monsters into the world. Converses with them at night, and shares their victory condition, and DOES have to be killed for the Adventurers to win. If viewed by a Diviner, appears to be a Wizard. Immune to the "Control Monster" and "Nature's Uprising" spells. Can attack normally for 50 damage. Separate from the nightly Monster attack, can use each of the following abilities once per game, at night, no more than one ability per night:
--* Lightning Bolt: Smite another player with a lightning bolt, dealing 50 points of damage.
--* Illusory Twin: Avoid all night effects aimed at you.
--* Magic Missile: Hit three players for 10 damage each.
--* Control Adventurer: Select an Adventurer to control for the night. All that player's night actions have no effect. There is a 50% chance that you learn their class. There is a 50% chance that they learn your class.

Lesser Demon. (only in the game if an Adventurer is corrupted) Has 50 health points. Hits a single target for 50 damage.


[/ QUOTE ]

Abaddon - Vanilla Wolf. 4 Points.
"Flame" - Vanilla Wolf with a sort of different attack. 5 Points.
"Corruptor" - It would prove near impossible to actually corrupt anyone. 10 or 30 damage? gack! And of course the adventurer would probably already have cried about getting hit hard. Blah. Let's say, 5 points.
"Pestilence" - lol 10 damage. 4 points.
Conjurer - sort of weak godfather wolf. 5 points.


Wolves: 23 Points



59 Points vs 23 Points

zomg
it was a slaughter in the game too

but it was a good lesson in balancing ww games
I look forward to Dungeon III a lot too
where is it zomg

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think there might be other problems...

In a 13 player 9/1/3 game, I get

Wolves = 12 points
Villagers = 6 (seer)+ 8 (other villagers) = 14 points...

Wolves seem under valued.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can put the seer as 5 points in a game this small

so 12 points vs 13 points is quite balanced

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

9-13 player games:

Seer = 5 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 4 Points

15-19 Player Games:

Seer = 6 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 5 Points

21-27 Player Games:

Seers = 6.5 Points each
Angel = 6 Points

29+ Player Games

Seers = 7 Points Each
Angel = 7 Points

imo

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think there might be other problems...

In a 13 player 9/1/3 game, I get

Wolves = 12 points
Villagers = 6 (seer)+ 8 (other villagers) = 14 points...

Wolves seem under valued.

[/ QUOTE ]

you can put the seer as 5 points in a game this small

so 12 points vs 13 points is quite balanced

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually my math was bad, it's seer+9 vill (not 8) but
your point is still valid. As the numbers get smaller, the point "resolution" gets poorer...

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

you are underestimating mat sklansky / durron597 / iron_yuppie synergy, especially with an evil seer, plus you are way undervaluing the convertible

that game goes so different if they don't waste possession and pinktutubear doesn't die

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Let's improve/perfect the point system. This is a pretty good starting point imo.
I think it would be interesting to run some long games with pro village power roles but only plain wolves. Ususally for some reason (probably because it's more fun [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] ) the mods also create power wolves.
Or maybe if I have some spare time I'll write a simulation of 13 player turbos.
Actually, I wonder how turbos with only plain villagers and plain wolves would play. Would probably suck because the wolves have no reason to seer hunt and thus can hide perfectly.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

The point system won't ever be perfect because the value of various roles differs due to the presence of other roles and the size of the game. For instance, the more power villagers there are, the less useful the seers become because they will often peek a power villager who would be able to confirm himself via roleclaiming, so the peek is sort of a waste. Also, the value of a roleblocker depends on what sort of night actions are in the game.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
you are underestimating mat sklansky / durron597 / iron_yuppie synergy, especially with an evil seer, plus you are way undervaluing the convertible

that game goes so different if they don't waste possession and pinktutubear doesn't die

[/ QUOTE ]I maintain the possession was not WASTED. This whole idea of saving it looks stupid later if I die. The possession also looks much better if I don't flub the counterclaim.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

A few points on balancing.

I can remember several games that I thought were unwinnable by the wolf side. I can think of very few that grossly favored the wolves.

I don't like the Angel much at all. Having an angel allows people to role claim with impunity while the wolves flounder around trying to kill off the angel so they can get to the other roles. I just don't think the angel takes much skill to play or adds much to the game.

Finally, each game designer should ask themselves what would happen to their game if everyone just roleclaimed. Too often the answer is that the village would win in a walk. I think people are misled by Mish Mash games which are made balanced by an excess of insanity. If you tone down Mish Mash, but maintain the huge number of roles you get a game where everyone can just claim before dying.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

Mass claiming is a disaster, yes. That's why my Futurama game will have everyone with a named character, but it will be like the Star Trek games in that you don't know what names are in and which aren't, or which are good and which are evil.

Re: How to Balance WW games.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The point system won't ever be perfect because the value of various roles differs due to the presence of other roles and the size of the game. For instance, the more power villagers there are, the less useful the seers become because they will often peek a power villager who would be able to confirm himself via roleclaiming, so the peek is sort of a waste. Also, the value of a roleblocker depends on what sort of night actions are in the game.

[/ QUOTE ]
Still, a good heuristic is batter than nothing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]