10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

10/25 on ub, 7.5k effective. villan is solid winner, dont remember his name, hes been repotting me in position a lot, and has shown down hands like J9d and 44 in rr pots.

4 handed i pot AQhh utg, villan on button repots, i 4 bet to 740, villan calls

flop KhJh9. i bet 900 into ~1500 and villan min raises to 1800. i have 5.9k remaining. call, jam or reraise?

also does anyone check that flop w/ intention of calling/raising this deep?

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

what is his stack size?

Assuming he has ~ the same as you, I'm pushing here every time. He could trying to get a free turn card by taking control of the hand with the minraise, which could indicate that he's on a draw as well. So you've probably got some fold equity here with a push. Even if he calls you could find yourself in excellent shape.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

His bet is so weird, like its sort of player dependent to try to put him on a range there. I'd probably push without much thought and focus on another table.. =/

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

What happened in this hand?

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

Have you been 4betting a lot? I don't really like 4betting AQ here. Even if I have been getting repotted a lot I don't think it would be that much of a mistake to never 4bet pre.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

call

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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Have you been 4betting a lot? I don't really like 4betting AQ here. Even if I have been getting repotted a lot I don't think it would be that much of a mistake to never 4bet pre.

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no i havent 4 bet yet, and the sesh is prob 45 mins old, but i felt like i was geting taken advantage of by his constant rr in pos. its not std of me to 4bet aq in this spot, but given other factors, i decided it was time

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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dont u think he folds all that beats us and shoves his sets/2p? i rly dont wanna get 300 bb in w/ a flush draw and a gutshot as my outs

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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His bet is so weird, like its sort of player dependent to try to put him on a range there. I'd probably push without much thought and focus on another table.. =/

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yeh this is kind of a gross spot, the thing is that i think we have a reasonable amount of fold equity. i could definitely see someone taking this line with ak or aa as kind of a price out [censored] hands op's cbetting, get control of this street and the next, and have a relatively easy fold to a shove. obv he could just call those too and could be doing this with kk or jj. i dont know if hes calling 3bet lights enough that you want to expand his range past huge hands, but he could also be [censored] with you... im not really jacked about getting it in cause its like nfd gutter omg allin, but it helps that we have decent equity when called and i can definitely see him folding a bunch.

a call becomes more enticing the more likely he is to get it in on t's or hearts... pretty player dependent, although he'll likely not give you credit for suited hands (akhh's out) or aq if you havent been 4betting him much (even if he does give you aq its gotta be aqhh) and be forced to get it in on nut turns for you if he has a strong hand...

i think calls the safe play, but that shove could be more +ev if you had a read that made it that.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

its a trap! call!

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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are you serious?

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

wtffff jam

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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are you serious?

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He has a set a ton here. I mean, he cold calls a 4 bet from and utg raiser. That said, you have some equity, so I think you can call and pray a heart or 10 peels. I don't think shoving makes much sense as he is huge here like always.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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are you serious?

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I think I agree with AZK here.

If you havent really 4bet this session much (I dunno if you have much 4b history), I dont think AQs would be in your range here, esp. UTG. So i think if you call you still preserve your implied odds. Weird spot for sure though.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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are you serious?

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if all the money goes in, you are way behind.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

I like preflop esp 4handed. flop I would atleast consider checking and possibly calling, or maybe raising I'm not sure. only thing that sucks with check calling is that he can put us on a Q (specifically QQ) if a T comes off, unless you think he's agro enough to represent the Q to push us off AK/AA? ,so you can c/c c/c c/r or something. I dunno. I don't like check raising too much here, I'd like it better with a little smaller stacks(so you can c/r ai) but now I don't think you'll get action from much/anything worse except maybe T8hh specifically.

As played I think I would call unless I thought of villain as a better player than me(if so I would probably not play at this table though) and capable of pushing me off my hand on later streets with something less than 2pair/set. the next 2 streets can get very difficult to play however, and it's really hard to say something general here

Does anyone like calling now and checking possibly to check/raise allin on a blankish turn? I guess it depends on how aggressive villain is and this isn't really stated in the op, but it's ub so I'll assume he is

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

Sub with this much money in front of u its definitely a call...im too lazy to do the math but ur going to have a lot of money left on the turn...u can reevaulate things on the turn and play accordingly. If u do hit ur card ram it on the turn..if u dont u may still have odds to check call a psb.

That being said, if u have 100bb stax...a 4 bet pflop and the massive draw that u have just shove and hope to bust his set becuase that is what he has here in my experience.

Howd thos flips go with tramb btw?

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

How about just reraising? I think this is one of those rare spots where a reraise gets more respect than a shove. You also might be able to check-fold if he decides to flat and the board pairs.

This spot sucks though, I think just calling the flop is probably best. Either you are a coinflip or about 25%. I think its very rare that he min-reraises something he can fold after a 4bet.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

Board: Kh Jh 9s
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.838% 33.84% 00.00% 3015 0.00 { AhQh }
Hand 1: 66.162% 66.16% 00.00% 5895 0.00 { KK, JJ, 99 }

If this is his straight-up range and he always calls, we are getting 2:3 on a 1:2 shot, not the worst thing in the world, and I really think given the description of villain and the way sub plays, villain could have air, or worse flush draw or something, or be willing to put it in with AK unlikely obv. I dunno, I guess calling isn't that bad but I don't think shoving is that huge a mistake.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

when u just call though what do u do on a brick turn becuz pot is now so big dudes turn bet will be all in

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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when u just call though what do u do on a brick turn becuz pot is now so big dudes turn bet will be all in

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count pot odds because you're not any less way behind. I mean, he's minraising a PF 4 bettor on a KJ9 flop, he doesn't have AK and shoving is terrible.

also I think I c/something the flop because of this (probably C/R because I don't really want him to spite shove AK for some reason)

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

smells like a set, and i doubt he's gonna fold it. he might lay down 99, but i wouldnt bet on it.

so yea, call and hit your outs and stack him on the turn, since he's probably not laying down it even when you get there.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

getting it in on this flop is gross so uh..call. also i like the previous suggestion of c/c in this spot.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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are you serious?

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if all the money goes in, you are way behind.

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I'm not saying I like a push, I'm saying it's almost literally impossible to be way behind here.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

this is a UB hand.... no one ever has anything on UB. I definitely shove.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

min 3 bet?

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

to those suggesting call:

what line is best to get money out of villain on a turn card that hits us? i get the impression that just calling his minraise and checking that turn, villain will often check behind and may only call one more decent bet on either the turn or river, likewise with a ten as it puts a four-straight out there.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

reraise here and get it all in, with all the fold equity we have on top of our garunteed out how can this be a call you [censored] fish

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

If my math is correct, and my rough assumptions, he needs to fold about 1/5th of the time in order to break even on a shove. That seems likely, so shove seems reasonable.

Otoh what DJ Sensei wrote makes sense to me, which is that there's a good chance he'll call you on the turn if you just call the flop and hit your draw on the turn. Since your getting such good odds to call, that's an attractive play as well.

It looks to me like both plays would be +ev. Not sure which would be more so. I'm guessing calling.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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You must've misread the OP. Against a set, Hero 2:1 dog. That's the absolute worst shape he can be in. It looks like this guy has a very good hand, but that could be 2 pair or better (or very rarely AA). Vs. a range of 2 pair, set, straight, Hero's like 40% to win.

I shove the flop all day since I wouldn't be sure of what to do on a number of turn cards, and I'm looking for a spot to show this guy that I fight back.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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You must've misread the OP. Against a set, Hero 2:1 dog. That's the absolute worst shape he can be in. It looks like this guy has a very good hand, but that could be 2 pair or better (or very rarely AA). Vs. a range of 2 pair, set, straight, Hero's like 40% to win.

I shove the flop all day since I wouldn't be sure of what to do on a number of turn cards, and I'm looking for a spot to show this guy that I fight back.

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I felt like I was going insane.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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You must've misread the OP. Against a set, Hero 2:1 dog. That's the absolute worst shape he can be in. It looks like this guy has a very good hand, but that could be 2 pair or better (or very rarely AA). Vs. a range of 2 pair, set, straight, Hero's like 40% to win.

I shove the flop all day since I wouldn't be sure of what to do on a number of turn cards, and I'm looking for a spot to show this guy that I fight back.

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Given this action, when 6.5k goes in the middle you are a 60/40 dog. The best I think you can hope for is AK/AA. You have near zero fe imo...I prefer a peel...

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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call

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why not reraise?

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way behind.

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You must've misread the OP. Against a set, Hero 2:1 dog. That's the absolute worst shape he can be in. It looks like this guy has a very good hand, but that could be 2 pair or better (or very rarely AA). Vs. a range of 2 pair, set, straight, Hero's like 40% to win.

I shove the flop all day since I wouldn't be sure of what to do on a number of turn cards, and I'm looking for a spot to show this guy that I fight back.

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Given this action, when 6.5k goes in the middle you are a 60/40 dog. The best I think you can hope for is AK/AA. You have near zero fe imo...I prefer a peel...

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I agree with that. However, SOME portion of the time, he does fold here. 60/40 is how it's gonna end up very often, but with the small amount of FE you're not going to be worse than 50/50 here overall. There's probably some merit to calling and playing on, or maybe even reraising in case he's crazier than we think tonight and wants to do something very stupid. I'm not saying calling and c/f'ing if we miss or reraising with the intention of getting it in are terrible options, but shoving cannot possibly be terrible. HS players in this thread are saying things like, "You're gonna be 25% if all the money goes in." WTF? How? Like I said, I shove because of metagame, and the fact that I can possibly avoid making a big mistake (folding the turn when he's much weaker than what he's repping) that I am somewhat likely to make vs. this player.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

This may sound like a stupid question(s):

If we do shove, how easy of a call is it for him with KJ? With 99 for that matter?

If shoving is not an option for some people, shania will dislike you.

I'm obviously saying the history isn't there, but still...

As played, I usually HATE b3b'ing over the top of a minraise, since he's giving me such good odds to just peel and make the nuts and profit. However, Jebus it gets weird OOP in this kind of a pot... I really don't know.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

Instacall KJ, insta call any set, fold out any 1 pair hands. If im minraising the flop for value, theres not a chance im folding to a push with 2 pair/set

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

If you instacall KJ here you either think Sub is really bad, or you are really bad.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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If you instacall KJ here you either think Sub is really bad, or you are really bad.

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That's kind of what I was thinking.

Re: 10/25 deep 4bet pot big draw
 

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If you instacall KJ here you either think Sub is really bad, or you are really bad.

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I think ur really bad either way for calling a 4 bet there with KJ...