Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview also)
 

My goal is gain 15lbs over the next 4 months. (currently 165, 5'11") Im in pretty good shape.

Ive been working out 4 times a week, doing leg/arms/chest/back. Tomorrow is my first back day and I have no idea what back exercises would be compared in effectiveness to say.. sqauts for legs. Suggestions for my workout tomorrow would be awesome.

Also, here is my overall plan.
Diet: Im having one ready to drink Muscle Milk once a day in addition to my normal diet of 2 large meals (both with meat) ex carne asada burrito + beef taco for lunch, and 3x3 In and Out with fries for dinner. I would have the muscle milk for breakfast, 30mins or so before my workout.

Legs: The main focus will be sqauts, and after the first workout 4 sets of squats had me totally spent. Next time ill add the calf machine.

Arms: using the 1 handed grip on those rope/pully giant machines to isolate both my biceps and tricepts. Then doing skull crushers, and finishing with one arm preacher curls.

Chest: I went solo so I used dumbells to do bench. Next did the decline Hammer machine. I was spent, so im not sure what ill add next time.

I also will do some type of an ab workout each time.

Any comments would be great.

-Matt

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

This plan sucks. Use a professional beginner one. Diet is almost worst I could imagine.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
This plan sucks. Use a professional beginner one. Diet is almost worst I could imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol - as I was typing it out I realized how bad the diet sounded. do you have a link to a professional beginner one?

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview also)
 

Deadlift
Bent over barbell row
Pullups
One arm dumbbell row

IMO in order of importance... and that is of course just a segment of avaliable back work

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview also)
 

thanks Rearden

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Matt,

I'd completely scrap whatever you are doing. Look at some of the beginner stuff on T-nation or crossfit depending on your goals. T-nation is geared more for looking good, while crossfit is more about "athletic" performance.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
This plan sucks. Use a professional beginner one. Diet is almost worst I could imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The Gym on 2+2: Post and get ripped on by Thremp"

I agree and I think everyone else would that his program/diet need work... but your post is hardly productive in any respect

Come to think of it most of your posts are similar and it has me curious on the application of the note on tone

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Maybe we could create a beginner sticky to read. His diet is about as bad as you can reasonably get still eating 3 meals. Like... horrid. Like super horrid.

He has a wretched split using a ton of isolation exercise with no real direction. Would it be better if instead I wrote:

"You plan isn't the best. I suggest a couple tweaks.
1) Read a book/post/memo/pamphlet/log about diet/nutrition.
2) Copy a workout plan.
But I mean... You plan looks great. Don't let anyone tell you its really bad, cause you know... You can believe what you want."

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This plan sucks. Use a professional beginner one. Diet is almost worst I could imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The Gym on 2+2: Post and get ripped on by Thremp"

I agree and I think everyone else would that his program/diet need work... but your post is hardly productive in any respect

Come to think of it most of your posts are similar and it has me curious on the application of the note on tone

[/ QUOTE ]

if he read this forum at all he would have been able to guess what all the advice would be...and any person that took more than two seconds would know that his diet is crap and obviously not going to help any kind of fitness efforts...people, take a couple minutes looking around before you make a thread...

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This plan sucks. Use a professional beginner one. Diet is almost worst I could imagine.

[/ QUOTE ]

"The Gym on 2+2: Post and get ripped on by Thremp"

I agree and I think everyone else would that his program/diet need work... but your post is hardly productive in any respect

Come to think of it most of your posts are similar and it has me curious on the application of the note on tone

[/ QUOTE ]

if he read this forum at all he would have been able to guess what all the advice would be...and any person that took more than two seconds would know that his diet is crap and obviously not going to help any kind of fitness efforts...people, take a couple minutes looking around before you make a thread...

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I didnt think my diet was as terrible as you guys make it out to be, but Im only a beginer. I was thinking that getting all of the protein would be perfect. I dont care if its not 'lean meat', and frankly im not into it enough at this point to eat chicken breast and salad everyday. Im also busy with work/school/poker/gf/friends so I tend to eat out for almost all of my meals.

I would appreciate if you guys could point out why my diet is so bad and maybe help me with some alternatives that I can get as take out?

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Matt,

Its the right sort of idea: "Eat more food" but poorly implemented. You should eat more meals and try to get some nutrients as well. Your diet is devoid of vitamins minerals etc and very high in salt/trans fats.

It really depends how dedicated you are. If you can't find time to prepare like a few meals a day that are actually good, you are far too busy or more likely... Far too lazy.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Im begining to realize I need to be a lot more dedicated.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Life decisions are what you make, but what you outlined above won't get you to your said goal possibly ever.

First figure out some goals and how important they are. Then find a way to get there.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im begining to realize I need to be a lot more dedicated.

[/ QUOTE ]

do rippetoe

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is not T-Nation, this is not Bodybuilding, this is not a "if you can't lose/gain weight you are a [censored] wuss" forum. Like it or not, this forum's primary target is the average poster on 2+2 that has little to no clue on how to lose weight, bulk up, get in shape, be a better athlete, or understand nutrition. So, comments like "you suck and stop making excuses" are totally out of line and will result in a temporary suspension for 2 days. These comments are not productive whatsoever, and can be phrased much more constructively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Rearden: Just something you have to get used to, Thremp chooses to ignore this tone post even though it might have been created directly for him. His one sentence answers usually give virtually no help. Luckily most posters aren't like him.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
Would it be better if instead I wrote:

"You plan isn't the best. I suggest a couple tweaks.
1) Read a book/post/memo/pamphlet/log about diet/nutrition.
2) Copy a workout plan.
But I mean... You plan looks great. Don't let anyone tell you its really bad, cause you know... You can believe what you want."

[/ QUOTE ]

It would be better if you elaborated on the why, didn't post in such a pompous ass manner, and backed up what you said with examples. He was asking for help, not someone to tell him how much his plan sucks, his diet sucks, and everything about him sucks. Have just a little class...it'll get you somewhere.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview also)
 

Creating a beginner sticky would be an incredibly good idea.

Overall though I think the point of 2+2 (outside of oot or bbv4life) is constructive analysis... anyone can say "that sucks" or "donk" or whatever the gym equivalent is but that shouldnt often get said here.

MatthewRyan I respect your post and unlike other people dont expect you to have gone through every other topic in this forum. You're starting out and hey youre making mistakes... ok cool... we all make them and try to learn from them. I don't know anyone that was born with in depth knowledge of fitness. I think it's great that youre man enough to ask guys for help when youre a bit lost. I would hate for this forum to turn into a place where guys who think they know about lifting come in and wave their e*penis to seem tough... no one deserves that and beginners wont learn from that.

The point of an advice forum, or responding to someone asking for advice, is to...... give them advice.

Saying their diet and workout sucks is pretty useless as the poster would know this or else not be asking for advice and tips.

Thremp I agree with you on a lot of points in terms of lifting theory, nutrition, etc. But I have never heard of anyone with your lack of credentials (I didnt see you posting in the "post here if youre a trainer" thread) or your own personal weight totals being this cocky... simple as that. If ripping on a guy with slim experience and offering no or little constructive advice is what gets you off... ok. I dont know how you are able to post the way you do.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Good post Rearden. The thing about training is so much misinformation, poor information, and things being said without any evidence that they work exist. Hell I have some credentials and don't consider myself that knowledgeable really. The best way to learn is to ask questions, and when I started out lifting I asked them all the time, and I still do today. Strengh and nutrition isn't like poker, the math can't be right all the time with this. The field is so new in terms of science, we still have a lot to learn about pretty much anything. Many different ways to get lean, get muscular, etc.

If no one asks questions on this part of the forum then what is the purpose of it? We should be encouraging discussion and questions here, not trying to run people off IMO.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]


Thremp I agree with you on a lot of points in terms of lifting theory, nutrition, etc. But I have never heard of anyone with your lack of credentials (I didnt see you posting in the "post here if youre a trainer" thread) or your own personal weight totals being this cocky... simple as that.

[/ QUOTE ]

To the best of my knowledge he is a guy that is into weight training. "Credentials" as far as trainers etc have are a joke.

He didn't call the dude a moron or anything, he just told him to look at some real programs instead of whatever he came up with on the toilet.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Ed,

I am not talking about a trend limited to this thread at all.

Suitable creds could range from having held a position as a strength/conditioning coach to actually having numerous certifications or as I also mentioned excelling personally (there is a big difference between someone who has studied and applied the techniques/training to squat 500 in a coaching or even academic setting, someone who has personally squatted 500, and finally an individual who claims to know how to squat 500 yet lacks any elements of the first two examples). Many posters in this forum have personal totals and records which are very impressive yet few speak with any airs about them or their experience and proficiency; that is commendable

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

The only problem I have with Thremp (and I've tried being nice to him) is that he just says one thing and never explains himself.

"That advice sucks." "That program sucks." "That's stupid." None of that helps anyone. He definitely has knowledge on the subject, but he isn't open to discussion of his points. He would be a much better poster if he was open to discussion. This place would be much better off if he wasn't such a jerk to everyone.

I know much more about weight training and nutrition than I do on poker. When I ask poker questions I don't expect people to just say that's a crappy way to play it and not ever take the time to explain it.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

He's not trying to discuss it, and that's fine.

[ QUOTE ]
Matt,

I'd completely scrap whatever you are doing. Look at some of the beginner stuff on T-nation or crossfit depending on your goals. T-nation is geared more for looking good, while crossfit is more about "athletic" performance.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is good advice. I think it's great that there is a fitness forum here, but pointing people towards good places to get information is fine.

If I make a post in a strat forum about folding aces preflop I'll probably get pointed towards some kind of beginner FAQ or be told to buy a book.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

like ive said in other threads...i think this forum is great for some discussion and great for logs, but as a primer to starting a healthy diet and getting programs designed this just isn't the place...

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Why isn't it? The quote below is from the post on tone. I don't mind links to other places, but discussion helps everyone and the majority of people who come to a poker forum probably do not know a lot of stuff. Really, complaining about beginner questions is pretty lame given this isn't exactly an advanced nutriton/exercise science forum. I don't think people are going to come here looking for people to make them workouts or make them diets, but they can definitely post what they have been doing and we can suggest tweaks or link them to places to get answers. Everyone was a beginner at some point.


[ QUOTE ]
This is not T-Nation, this is not Bodybuilding, this is not a "if you can't lose/gain weight you are a [censored] wuss" forum. Like it or not, this forum's primary target is the average poster on 2+2 that has little to no clue on how to lose weight, bulk up, get in shape, be a better athlete, or understand nutrition. So, comments like "you suck and stop making excuses" are totally out of line and will result in a temporary suspension for 2 days. These comments are not productive whatsoever, and can be phrased much more constructively.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Rearden,

Why does cred matter? If in fact credentials do... I challenge all to a calf building contest. Anyone with larger calves at a lower bodyweight can say what they want.

Would that make you feel better?

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Matt,

Forget your split routine. They're a ridiculous waste of time for most people. Start doing a full body routine 3x week. Search this forum for the Starr's 5x5 routine. Squat, Deadlift, Bench or Overhead Press. That's it. Forget about ancillary movements.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rearden,

Why does cred matter? If in fact credentials do... I challenge all to a calf building contest. Anyone with larger calves at a lower bodyweight can say what they want.

Would that make you feel better?

[/ QUOTE ]

Credentials matter in the same reason that most people dont:
-Listen to fat people about diet advice
-Listen to mircolimit poster's advice on 2k buy in games
-Seek legal/stock/medical advice from the average Joe who does not have a level of professional education or validation.
-Why people buy books by David S as opposed to my super elite book in the works on crushing NL200
etc.

Even then most people would agree that those who are qualified should never speak out with an overly pompous tone. That's not what this site, or even the concept of advice giving/constructive analysis, is about.

Thremp there are people on this forum that have higher personal totals than you, more years total of fitness experience, a level of professional certification/education etc... but there is no one that takes the approach you do to talk to beginners. And frankly no one should. I do not mean this as a personal attack on you Thremp; I have never met you and for all I know man you could be an awesome dude to watch a game with or toss back a few.... but as far as your posts in this forum in response to beginners/sometimes experienced folks I very much disagree with your tone and approach.

Additionally your calf building arguement...wtf? Yes obviously if you were the "king of calves" I would value your advice more than the advice of someone with pencils for legs surely...but even then that would not be a license to be rude to guys who just want information. No matter what your level of qualification, and I already went over that, there is no one on this board or in my opinion in the world so qualified as to degrade the comments/ideas of admitted newbies, without offering much or any constructive comments, in order to make themselves feel better.

EDIT TO ADD:

-I have recieved PMs in support of what I have said in this thread. Thank you. I would ask however that rather than PM me you either 1: Post your comments in the forum and make your statements known 2: contact people who can actually do something about tone enforcement (mods). I also hope that any and all sides in this debate (or any future debate) keep the comments professional and do not devolve into personal name calling/insults.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Rearden,

There are a number of reasons most credentials don't matter.

1) Most of the "trainers" with letters after their names got them from silly mail order correspondence course so they could work at a chain gym. Passing poorly written multiple choice tests does not make one an expert. Having the little letters after your name is the most useless credential there is.

2) Most of the people with degrees in fields related to physical training were taught by people that have no idea what they're doing. They went to a lot of classes and can name every muscle in the body but have no idea how training impacts them.

3) There are a ton of "experts" out there, all with credentials. They all have different views. They're not all right so most of those credntials don't mean anything.

4) Most good trainers aren't training average Joes like the people here, and the programs and training they write about isn't usually designed for them. Case in point is all the stupid split routines in the muscle magazines that are almost useless if not counterproductive for most people.

5) Most people work out for personal reasons, with their own goals. Most work jobs or have other careers. Not being a professional trainer or some kind of bodybuilder or powerlifting contestant doesn't mean they don't know what they're doing. As an example, I used to bench 1.5x BW for reps, but I have never participated in any kind of contest. It doesn't mean I'm clueless.

I'm not saying that someone who has major personal physical accomplishments or trained people who have don't have meaningful credentials. I'm just saying a lack of "credentials" doesn't at all mean that someone doesn't know what they're talking about in this field.

edit: If you read through this forum, Thremp has given quite a bit of good advice. He's gotten more caustic and less helpful lately probably because he's tired of posting the same things over and over for people that keep asking the questions w/o bothering to read anything first.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Rearden,

Thats my point. You would think what I do on calves is good for some awkward reason. Whereas I'd tell you that you have inferior genetics... Will never have relative calf development like I do, and that I accidentally am forced to work my calves when doing things like power cleans.

Pushing ridiculous anecdotal proof in the form of your own ability or that you have received XXX certification and therefore your advice must be best is the height of ignorance. I started some threads that have gotten token responses on more advanced issues, but it seems this isn't the place. However, 95% of the "advice" people here need is to copy someone else's program who makes a living designing these, do it, and change their eating habits.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, 95% of the "advice" people here need is to copy someone else's program who makes a living designing these, do it, and change their eating habits.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is the program they're probably going to copy is probably from an article entitled "How Ronnie Coleman Makes Massive Gains!" or something equally nonsensical. After all, he does have credentials! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, 95% of the "advice" people here need is to copy someone else's program who makes a living designing these, do it, and change their eating habits.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is the program they're probably going to copy is probably from an article entitled "How Ronnie Coleman Makes Massive Gains!" or something equally nonsensical. After all, he does have credentials! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]


Clearly this is the path to the top. Groupthink FTW.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
Pushing ridiculous anecdotal proof in the form of your own ability or that you have received XXX certification and therefore your advice must be best is the height of ignorance.

[/ QUOTE ]

Youre absolutely right. Anecdotal advice in the form of professional validation or personal accomplishment is trumped by your claim of elite knowledge..... (a claim that of course exists without such validation or personal record)...niiiiiiiiiice

You have also made no comment as to the issue of tone which I think is more important. That regardless of what you say, and again to restate I find myself agreeing with you on most topics, you say it incredibly poorly and in a way to degrade beginners.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Rearden,

I don't think you understand. It doesn't matter who is saying things if they are right. Knowledge doesn't come from magical knowledge fountains. It exists. It doesn't matter if Dids posts... Your diet isn't good for weight gaining... if he is correct. I'm unsure of how a certification indicates that your ideas are correct if your certification sucks, (Has ACE recognized steroids work yet?) or through personal practice since sample size is so small its meaningless.

I will behave how I want until 1) I want to change 2) I am told to change.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

For the most part Thremp's posts seem brash and unproductive, but in this thread what more can you really ask for? The guy comes in and asks how he can gain 15 lbs in 4 months, with a diet of 2 fast food meals + shake and a workout that seems like he walks around the gym until he sees a machine that looks fun.

If you're not gonna put in the effort to read and try to learn, why would someone want to put in the effort to lay everything out for you?

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

FWIW Thremp's tone sucked way worse before and he's gotten a lot better. I agree with zer0 -- sometimes a brisk, sharp tone is warranted when people ask ridiculous things without having done the research. That being said, I keep it as polite as I can here.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thremp's tone sucked way worse before and he's gotten a lot better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lies. I deadlift way morez than you. Bow before my all-seeing encompassing might and reference the ACSM seminar I read about.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

[ QUOTE ]
I will behave how I want until 1) I want to change 2) I am told to change.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thremp,

Are you in 12 gangs?
Do you commit hate crimes?

My comments were about the level of respectable conduct and credibility that I think folks in all fields should maintain. I am not arguing with the validity of many of your ideas, again I feel evidence supports a large amount of them, what I am arguing with and will keep discussing is your tone. That no matter how personally knowledgable one can be there is a responsibility assumed to... I dunno not be a dick with it (crude but the best way I could say it).

If youre tired of giving workout advice or walking people through stuff... dont. That would be just as constructive as "rawr your program sucks". Again, as I have said before, I am fascinated by your level of arrogance in posting the way you do despite the fact that you have no professional or academic validation and little personal experience in the face of more experienced and proficient posters (who do not take the tone you do).

This is a workout forum on a site devoted to poker... what do you think the average experience level will be? I think it is safe to assume that most posters will have little to no lifting or diet experience and thus the goal of this experience is not to really to talk about what gear you should be on or what results you can expect from a certain bench shirt but rather how to get started (I would welcome those more advanced discussions as well however). In other aspects of 2+2 individuals post who know nothing to little about a topic (poker) and the site and publications try to treat them with respect and impart, humbly, a good amount of knowledge. I do not know why the same can't be done here. That should be the goal of the gym... help to get newbies into the gym and help them stay there and thrive. I do not expect everyone in here to know as much as some on issues of supplementation, training, etc. I can only hope that eventually they do. But, through reasonable comments and proper criticism and advice we can help them with that without making them feel like [censored] for not having reread every thread in the forum or not having years of hardcore lifting/proper dieting under their belt.

We are all newbies at some point Thremp. And no one here has the perfect body, uses the perfect routine, has a perfect diet, etc... so why take a high and mighty tone with anyone?

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

Rearden,

TLDR, you can join the jah7 camp.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

While Thremp makes some good points about credentials it still amazes me how he refuses to discuss anything or usually ever elaborate. Even more amazing is people on here defending his actions. He has some good advice, but some of his advice isn't very good. No ONE knows all the answers, and if someone has a problem or wants more info on advice he gives prepare to get yourself ripped or ignored.

1. "Point Blank,

Your advice sucks. On second thought it isn't even advice."

2. "Bitch [censored]"

3. "Don't speak to me. Choke on a [censored] and die."

4. "Drink soda, beer, juice, sugar water, but no just pure water." (Potentially dangerous advice)

"6. Dude,

You are either stupid, lazy, indifferent or some combination of all of the above."

I could list a million more examples from this forum where he treats other people like crap. The post on tone was probably written directly for him. And no one with knowledge would post the way he does, and he lacks knowledge in a lot of areas and does that.

It's sad...I'd ignore him, but sometimes his advice is very misleading and I have to help people out.

I just don't see why people defend him...you can search his name on this forum and 75% of his posts are ripping people or making baseless claims.

Re: Help me plan my back workout for tomorrow (total plan overview als
 

i think i was one of the first people to "get into it" with thremp, because, well, he acts and posts like (fill in the blank with whatever you want here)

kyle b. constantly has backed him and said his advice is good etc., even when no one would listen to it because it is coming in such a foul manner.

this being said, my question is this........

thremp, what are you trying to do by posting here?

provoke and pick fights?
help people?
show your "superiority" in knowledge?
make people feel bad about their shortcomings in fitness?
prentend this is t-nation?
have a place that you can finally be a bully and not have to worry about the physical consequences?

i am really curious to your motivation to post on here because it seems as though many people geniunely want and need help and there are another group willing to try to devote their time and knowledge to this cause, but you seem to be doing much more harm than good by acting "the way you want." does that matter to you?

later. J.