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Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
41,650 deaths related to motor vehicle accidents,
17,229 in falls at home and on the job, 3,306 from water in drowning, 19,457 from poisoning, in the same year, 3,369 due to fire or burns, 3,200 due to choking, and 900 from guns Note that the top category of vehicle accidents is 45 times greater than the bottom category of guns. Should we outlaw cars, and ladders? If guns are so dangerous, why is it like 18 or so times more likely to die from a fall? lol http://www.lindleyonline.com/gunstats/stats.htm |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
Speaking for myself, my major concern is not about what happens when guns are used accidentally.
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Guns save lives
Guns save lives and strict laws resticting gun ownership and rights to carry directly result in muders, rapes, aggravated assaults, and robberies: Concealed carry laws help reduce crime * Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9 * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed: * States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11 http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
From 1990 to 1997, there were 293,781 firearm deaths in the U.S. Yeah, guns and cars are dangerous.
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Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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From 1990 to 1997, there were 293,781 firearm deaths in the U.S. Yeah, guns and cars are dangerous. [/ QUOTE ] When I read your post, I thought, that can't be right. Then I remembered that the early and middle 90's were extremely violent. I believe those were the peak years for the crack epidemic and the media-generated, super-predators. If you look at the numbers from 1981-2000, they flatten out somewhat and breakdown as follows: Suicides 354,540 Homicides 281,904 Unintentional 27,470 Intervention by Law Enforcement 5,546 Unknown 8,602 I took the above information from an anti-handgun organization's website. Which can be found here http://www.doctorsagainsthandguninju...gun_injury.pdf Compelling and interesting reading. For the record, I own a handgun and have owned several different types of guns since I was 18. I am a supporter of the 2nd Amendment. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
For the record:
-I have been consistently anti-gun throughout my life -I believe the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with a person's right to own a handgun for self-defense. (You can check out recent threads on this where I made my case.) -I am beginning to reconsider my anti-gun stance. -OP's implied assertion that guns are not dangerous because there are more accidental deaths from other causes strikes me as wrong. If we define dangerous as "likely to cause harm or injury," guns are certainly dangerous. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
of course some of the biggest killers on the list are necessary evils. Returning to horse back or living in only one story buildings is not really an option for modern society. Yet it seems that guns are not really essential to the workings of the modern world. Not saying they should be banned, rather that this argument is flawed.
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Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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41,650 deaths related to motor vehicle accidents, 17,229 in falls at home and on the job, 3,306 from water in drowning, 19,457 from poisoning, in the same year, 3,369 due to fire or burns, 3,200 due to choking, and 900 from guns Note that the top category of vehicle accidents is 45 times greater than the bottom category of guns. Should we outlaw cars, and ladders? If guns are so dangerous, why is it like 18 or so times more likely to die from a fall? lol http://www.lindleyonline.com/gunstats/stats.htm [/ QUOTE ] Your quotes are about "accidental" deaths. The thing is, guns kill a lot more people in an intentional setting...and in lots of these cases, the perpetrators of the violence either would not or could not commit their acts of violence without guns...like the bar fight that escalates into a shooting -- no guns and a few guys wind up in the hospital for bruises and scrapes, with guns and one or more people are dead...or situations like VaTech -- no guns and maybe he goes into a fit of rage with a baseball bat or a sword or something, and maybe he even offs a couple people...but no way he kills 32 before killing himself. This is the danger I find much more relevant about guns...the ease with which situations that would very likely NOT result in death without guns ends up resulting in death with them. Sure, analyzing purely accidental gun deaths paints a picture that they're not one of the more dangerous things around. But analyzing how many less people would die of homicide without regular, easy access to guns...that's a MUCH different story. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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Yet it seems that guns are not really essential to the workings of the modern world. Not saying they should be banned, rather that this argument is flawed. [/ QUOTE ] Legally, you could make self defense a crime. You could make the use of force in any manner a crime. Because it's not necessary in the modern world. Eventually all the assaulters would be in jail and we would have perfect peace. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] Yet it seems that guns are not really essential to the workings of the modern world. Not saying they should be banned, rather that this argument is flawed. [/ QUOTE ] Legally, you could make self defense a crime. You could make the use of force in any manner a crime. Because it's not necessary in the modern world. Eventually all the assaulters would be in jail and we would have perfect peace. [/ QUOTE ] A lowered level of self defense will not cause society to crumble to same way as prohibition of personal automated transit would. Tis the only point I make. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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but no way he kills 32 before killing himself. [/ QUOTE ] People don't kill that many people in spur-of-the-moment confrontations like a bar fight. Mass killings like this are premeditated. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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For the record: -I am beginning to reconsider my anti-gun stance. [/ QUOTE ] Good. Whatever you may finally decide on this, to occasionally reconsider core beliefs or a firmly held lifelong stance is a wise thing to do. -Zeno |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
I don't see how anyone can say that guns are not dangerous. As a matter of fact, IMO, anyone who would say that guns are not dangerous, automatically increases a guns inherent danger.
I think the numbers I listed and the other statistics that can be found on the website I linked in my other post, clearly demonstrate that guns are dangerous. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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I don't see how anyone can say that guns are not dangerous. As a matter of fact, IMO, anyone who would say that guns are not dangerous, automatically increases a guns inherent danger. I think the numbers I listed and the other statistics that can be found on the website I linked in my other post, clearly demonstrate that guns are dangerous. [/ QUOTE ] Of course guns are dangerous. Much in the same way knives or cars are dangerous. In the hands of responsible people, any potential damage is minimal. In the hands of someone who wants to do damage, well, they're going to do damage anyway they want or can. Nobody has ever said guns are not dangerous, and I have no idea where you got that idea. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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I don't see how anyone can say that guns are not dangerous. As a matter of fact, IMO, anyone who would say that guns are not dangerous, automatically increases a guns inherent danger. I think the numbers I listed and the other statistics that can be found on the website I linked in my other post, clearly demonstrate that guns are dangerous. [/ QUOTE ] It seems disingenuous to include suicide (the #1 category in your stats) as part of the "guns are dangerous" argument since the point of suicide is to intentionally harm yourself. If a significant portion of the suicides were instead committed by people jumping off buildings, bridges, and other means, society would in fact be more dangerous for most people. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
Im off to bed now.
In the morning i look forward to reading up on the links you provided showing how many people have been saved by guns compared to how many have been killed by guns. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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If guns are so dangerous, why is it like 18 or so times more likely to die from a fall? [/ QUOTE ] yeah because whenever I've been in a situation where a fall may be possible there is always a gun around. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] If guns are so dangerous, why is it like 18 or so times more likely to die from a fall? [/ QUOTE ] yeah because whenever I've been in a situation where a fall may be possible there is always a gun around. [/ QUOTE ] Hahahahahaha. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] but no way he kills 32 before killing himself. [/ QUOTE ] People don't kill that many people in spur-of-the-moment confrontations like a bar fight. Mass killings like this are premeditated. [/ QUOTE ] Well, most of them are anyway...you could certainly have done what that kid did on a whim, though, if you were well-trained in weapons. Still...mass killings like the one yesterday are impossible without access to guns or weapons even more lethal than guns (bombs, missiles, grenades, etc.). I'm not saying that means all guns should be illegal (I think, ideally, the world would be a better place without a steady stream of guns, but have no idea about the pragmatics of such a change and am sure it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible)...just that that element of danger guns pose cannot be forgotten about by quoting 900 as a "gun death" number. The OP's (source's) numbers are disingenuous as they leave out other ways in which guns pose a far greater societal danger (as compared to if they were not around) than they do in the accidental sense. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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Im off to bed now. In the morning i look forward to reading up on the links you provided showing how many people have been saved by guns compared to how many have been killed by guns. [/ QUOTE ] In case you missed it: Guns save lives and strict laws resticting gun ownership and rights to carry directly result in muders, rapes, aggravated assaults, and robberies: Concealed carry laws help reduce crime * Nationwide: one-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.9 * Concealed carry laws are dropping crime rates across the country. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed: * States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;10 and * If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.11 http://www.gunowners.org/sk0802.htm |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] I don't see how anyone can say that guns are not dangerous. As a matter of fact, IMO, anyone who would say that guns are not dangerous, automatically increases a guns inherent danger. I think the numbers I listed and the other statistics that can be found on the website I linked in my other post, clearly demonstrate that guns are dangerous. [/ QUOTE ] Of course guns are dangerous. Much in the same way knives or cars are dangerous. In the hands of responsible people, any potential damage is minimal. In the hands of someone who wants to do damage, well, they're going to do damage anyway they want or can. Nobody has ever said guns are not dangerous, and I have no idea where you got that idea. [/ QUOTE ] If I walk into a room and there is a rattlesnake in one corner and a gun in the other corner, which poses a greater danger to me? |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
bk,
Other than the 900 accidental deaths, how many people are killed by guns each year? Also, i look forward to seeing just how sound the statistics on pro gun use are when reported by gunowners.org. Link me to an independant organisation of some kind (or at least independant study), and ill give ground. Right, genuinely off to bed as its past 3am. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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If I walk into a room and there is a rattlesnake in one corner and a gun in the other corner, which poses a greater danger to me? [/ QUOTE ] You'ld probably fall and kill yourself anyway |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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bk, Link me to an independant organisation of some kind (or at least independant study), and ill give ground. [/ QUOTE ] What does an 'independent organization' look like? (I don't think they exist). Any organization that would take the trouble to compile statistics would have a bias one way or another wouldn't they? Anyway I'm not a researcher I just wanted to start a new thread about guns as it's getting a lot of attention in the VT threads. Anyone have research handY?? |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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Still...mass killings like the one yesterday are impossible without access to guns or weapons even more lethal than guns (bombs, missiles, grenades, etc.). [/ QUOTE ] Unfortunately, it doesn't take much to acquire the materials to make bombs. [ QUOTE ] just that that element of danger guns pose cannot be forgotten about by quoting 900 as a "gun death" number. [/ QUOTE ] I don't think the OP was implying that there's nothing dangerous about guns. Guns can be dangerous, no question. [ QUOTE ] The OP's (source's) numbers are disingenuous as they leave out other ways in which guns pose a far greater societal danger (as compared to if they were not around) than they do in the accidental sense. [/ QUOTE ] Do mention the positive impact that guns have? He's making a specific point about the relative danger of killing yourself with a gun vs several other methods. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] If I walk into a room and there is a rattlesnake in one corner and a gun in the other corner, which poses a greater danger to me? [/ QUOTE ] You'ld probably fall and kill yourself anyway [/ QUOTE ] It's more likely for that to kill me than a gun accident, isn't it. |
More fun facts:
* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1
* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. At the time the law was passed, critics predicted increases in violence. The founder of the National Organization of Women, Betty Friedan stated: "lethal violence, even in self defense, only engenders more violence." (13) * When the law went into effect, the Dade County Police began a program to record all arrest and non arrest incidents involving concealed carry licensees. Between September of 1987 and August of 1992, Dade County recorded 4 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. None of these crimes resulted in an injury. The record keeping program was abandoned in 1992 because there were not enough incidents to justify tracking them. (13)(15) * Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred: Florida United States homicide rate -36% -0.4% firearm homicide rate -37% +15% handgun homicide rate -41% +24% * 221,443 concealed carry licenses were issued in Florida between October of 1987 and April of 1994. During that time, Florida recorded 18 crimes committed by licensees with firearms. (15) * As of 1998, nationwide, there has been 1 recorded incident in which a permit holder shot someone following a traffic accident. The permit holder was not charged, as the grand jury ruled the shooting was in self defense. (7) * As of 1998, no permit holder has ever shot a police officer. There have been several cases in which a permit holder has protected an officer's life. (7) http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] If guns are so dangerous, why is it like 18 or so times more likely to die from a fall? [/ QUOTE ] yeah because whenever I've been in a situation where a fall may be possible there is always a gun around. [/ QUOTE ] Do you have anything witty to say in comparing gun accident fatalities to poison accident fatalities? Like when there is a gun stored next to a bottle of lye? |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] If I walk into a room and there is a rattlesnake in one corner and a gun in the other corner, which poses a greater danger to me? [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You'ld probably fall and kill yourself anyway [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It's more likely for that to kill me than a gun accident, isn't it. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] In that situation, I'd doubt it. But I don't have any statistics to misinterpret. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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Do you have anything witty to say in comparing gun accident fatalities to poison accident fatalities? Like when there is a gun stored next to a bottle of lye? [/ QUOTE ] No. But it would probably help if I knew what lye was. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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Yet it seems that guns are not really essential to the workings of the modern world. [/ QUOTE ] Neither are cigarettes, twinkies, swimming pools, beaches (shark attack OH NOES). |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] Do you have anything witty to say in comparing gun accident fatalities to poison accident fatalities? Like when there is a gun stored next to a bottle of lye? [/ QUOTE ] No. But it would probably help if I knew what lye was. [/ QUOTE ] substitute random chemicals people are accidently poisoned with. Gun next to bottle of bleach. Gun next to bottle of drain cleaner. People are like what ? 20 times more likely to die by accidently poisoning than by firearm accident lol.... woops there goes some bleach down my throat lol |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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41,650 deaths related to motor vehicle accidents, 17,229 in falls at home and on the job, 3,306 from water in drowning, 19,457 from poisoning, in the same year, 3,369 due to fire or burns, 3,200 due to choking, and 900 from guns Note that the top category of vehicle accidents is 45 times greater than the bottom category of guns. Should we outlaw cars, and ladders? If guns are so dangerous, why is it like 18 or so times more likely to die from a fall? lol http://www.lindleyonline.com/gunstats/stats.htm [/ QUOTE ] We can't have a risk-free society, and no one's arguing for one. This little game of listing all the other ways you could possibly die serves no purpose at all. But just like we have traffic laws to try and minimize the death and injury from driving, or smoke alarm/sprinkler laws in apartment buildings, there should be laws to minimize the possible harm from guns. Many traffic laws are just commonsense precautions, and so are many of the proposed gun laws (closing the gun show loophole, background chhecks for ex.) Yet for some reason gun owners equate them with "taking away my right to defend myself." It's not taking away your rights any more than a driver's test is taking away your right to drive. |
Top Ten \"gun control\" myths
MYTH: Most gun deaths are caused by accidents or by crazed madmen.
FACT: More than two out of every three gun deaths are either suicides or drug-related murders. Source: Centers For Disease Control - Deaths 1998 (625KB document!) and U.S. Department Of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics MYTH: Twelve children are killed with guns each day. FACT: Half of the people that politicians count as "children killed with guns" were actually legally adults. The gun murder rate started falling when crack cocaine started going out of style in 1990. In 1997, 2284 children aged 0-17 years were killed with guns, most of them teenagers. That is 6 per day. In 1998, the number dropped to 1971, still mostly teenagers. That is 5 per day. The age distribution of child gun deaths tracks the age distribution of child drug dealers. Source: Centers For Disease Control MYTH: The best way to protect children from guns is to keep children ignorant about them. FACT: The best way to protect children from guns is to teach them gun safety and lock up guns whenever it is practical to do so. "Ignorance is best" is the old argument against sex-education, reworded by the same people who ridiculed it when it was used by sex-education opponents. With more than 250 million guns in the USA, children will encounter one sooner or later, especially if they live around police, security guards, hunters, or the military. MYTH: Trigger locks are the best protection against unauthorized gun use. FACT: The best protection against unauthorized gun use is to keep guns in a child-proof burglar-proof safe whenever they are not being used for hunting, self-protection, or target-shooting. Trigger locks do not protect guns from being stolen, and an improperly-installed trigger lock can cause a gun to fire accidentally, especially if the gun is dropped. MYTH: The politicians who talk loudest about "gun-control" work hard to prevent gun violence. FACT: After demanding passage of the Brady Law, the Clinton-Gore administration prosecuted fewer than 5 out of every 100 convicted felons who violated the law. In 1998 only 102 out of 90,000 were federally prosecuted. Source: U.S. Department Of Justice - Bureau of Justice Statistics, courtesy of US Congressman John Dingell MYTH: If guns were illegal, criminals would not have guns. FACT: Guns are readily available in China, Eastern Europe, and illegal-drug-producing countries such as Mexico and Columbia. Criminals smuggled 690,000 pounds of cocaine into the USA in the first 6 months of 2000. Thousands of guns can be hidden in 690,000 pounds of cocaine. Source: USA Today newspaper, 28 September 2000, page 3A MYTH: Mandatory gun registration means all guns must be registered. FACT: Because it is already illegal for convicted felons to own guns, the Fifth Amendment protects felons from being forced to incriminate themselves by registering their guns. Any criminal can easily avoid gun registration by committing a felony and getting probation, or by storing his guns at the home of a convicted felon. If his existing guns are confiscated, he can buy more from any drug dealer. Source: Fifth Amendment To The Constitution Of The United States and the US Supreme Court ruling Haynes Versus United States MYTH: "Gun-control" organizations are run by dedicated volunteers. FACT: The president of Handgun Control Incorporated (HCI) makes more than $150,000 per year from gun violence. Source: HCI financial filings MYTH: The National Rifle Association (NRA) is evil. FACT: For several decades the NRA has been working to reduce gun deaths. Their "Eddie Eagle" videos teach young children that when they encounter a gun they should: "Stop! Don't touch. Leave the area. Tell an adult." The NRA's magazines are full of advertisements for child-proof burglar-proof gun safes. The NRA-supported Project Exile has reduced gun deaths in Richmond, Virginia by strongly punishing criminals who use guns in crimes. The NRA has selfish reasons to fight gun violence: More gun deaths means more votes for anti-gun politicians and more money for multi-million-dollar "gun-control" businesses such as Handgun Control Incorporated. Source: NRA "Eddie Eagle" videotape and American Rifleman magazine MYTH: "Gun-control" laws worked in England. FACT: After more than fifty years of "sensible gun-control laws," English criminals have more than three million illegal guns, twice as many as ten years ago. Source: The Sunday Times newspaper, 16 January 2000, Killings rise as 3m illegal guns flood Britain and The Guardian newspaper, 23 October 2000, US-style gun law comes to Britain http://www.tincher.to/myths.htm |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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substitute random chemicals people are accidently poisoned with. Gun next to bottle of bleach. Gun next to bottle of drain cleaner. People are like what ? 20 times more likely to die by accidently poisoning than by firearm accident lol.... woops there goes some bleach down my throat lol [/ QUOTE ] Ok wittisisms aside. I'm not entirely sure what your getting at. Is it that a gun and a bottle of poison side by side are unequal threats? Or is that a site which intentionally ignores the key statistal component of opportunity should be taken as proof that guns are really one of the safest things in an extremely dangourous world. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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Many traffic laws are just commonsense precautions, and so are many of the proposed gun laws (closing the gun show loophole, background chhecks for ex.) [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] # According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from - * a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2% * a retail store or pawnshop for about 12% * family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80% [/ QUOTE ] Bureau of Justice Statistics |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] substitute random chemicals people are accidently poisoned with. Gun next to bottle of bleach. Gun next to bottle of drain cleaner. People are like what ? 20 times more likely to die by accidently poisoning than by firearm accident lol.... woops there goes some bleach down my throat lol [/ QUOTE ] Ok wittisisms aside. I'm not entirely sure what your getting at. Is it that a gun and a bottle of poison side by side are unequal threats? [/ QUOTE ] How many lives have bottles of bleach saved in the hands of responsible citizens being attacked by criminals intent on rape, robbery, murder? |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If I walk into a room and there is a rattlesnake in one corner and a gun in the other corner, which poses a greater danger to me? [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] You'ld probably fall and kill yourself anyway [/ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] It's more likely for that to kill me than a gun accident, isn't it. [/ QUOTE ] [/ QUOTE ] I don't have any statistics [/ QUOTE ] Go get some and lets discuss them. |
Re: Gun accidents? Guns are dangrous?
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From 1990 to 1997, there were 293,781 firearm deaths in the U.S. Yeah, guns and cars are dangerous. [/ QUOTE ] It's misleading to compare gun deaths to car deaths. You are (for the most part) comparing accidents to murders. Accident to accident a 1 gallon bucket of water is more dangerous to a 0-5 year old than a gun. A swimming pool is 100x more dangerous to children. When it comes to murders the debate gets extremely controversial about how much guns increase the homicide rate. According to Cardiff University boots are the most dangerous weapons in England. By the same token the murders by firearms was lower when there were no gun laws in England. Everything is dangerous in the the wrong hands (or on the wrong feet). |
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