What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

If you haven't heard, a lone gunman killed 20+ people at Virginia Tech University. As much as I would like to wait to do this until tomorrow, they've already started arguing in BBV4Life and OOT. So, what would you do about this kind of thing?

Re: What would do about Virginia Tech?
 

Let's make some fair assumptions first.

1. Gunmen had firearms illegally (due to age or bringing them onto campus, or storing them on campus).
2. Gunmen would have had firearms illegally if firearms were banned in the US.
3. Armed maniac + unarmed victims = mass murder.

Re: What would do about Virginia Tech?
 

This was a "gun free zone", btw.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

until the facts are in, I don't know what kind of meaningful discussion we can contribute but that's never stopped this forum before.

that is an unreal number of fatalities even for an assault rifle - and what, two seperate incidents over two hrs?

I PRAY it wasn't a returning Army/Marine Veteran, but to be totally blunt/frank, you don't get that kind of casuality rate from jim bob and his 9mm ruger in the glovebox - that sounds like an assault rifle and someone with some serious training/planning and about 4 banana clips - wonder what the wounded numbers are?

I'm worried it's going to be a vet with PTSD who had a breakdown - that would be about the worst possible scenario I can imagine,

but packing a Glock to Physics 101 isn't the answer.

rb

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we already have laws that limit the number of shells for some of the high capacity automatics, so he probably had some from before the bill was passed which I believe were still legal.

so I doubt more laws will make a difference.

rb

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
you don't get that kind of casuality rate from jim bob and his 9mm ruger in the glovebox - that sounds like an assault rifle and someone with some serious training/planning and about 4 banana clips - wonder what the wounded numbers are?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. I think this would be pretty easy to do in this setting for someone with any sort of background with guns---even something as benign as hunting or target shooting. Think about it: crowded buildings with few exits and herds of panicked people.

Personally, I don't think it's out of the question at all that this was someone with two handguns or something.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we already have laws that limit the number of shells for some of the high capacity automatics, so he probably had some from before the bill was passed which I believe were still legal.

so I doubt more laws will make a difference.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

Dids said it best in another thread, that no amount of gun control could have stopped this.

IMO, this situation highlights why a 100% ban on firearms doesn't work. Criminals don't care.

How would this story be changed if a gun-toting responsible student put an end to the gunman's life?

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you don't get that kind of casuality rate from jim bob and his 9mm ruger in the glovebox - that sounds like an assault rifle and someone with some serious training/planning and about 4 banana clips - wonder what the wounded numbers are?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree. I think this would be pretty easy to do in this setting for someone with any sort of background with guns---even something as benign as hunting or target shooting. Think about it: crowded buildings with few exits.

Personally, I don't think it's out of the question at all that this was someone with two handguns or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

but it seems to me the experience in these incidents has been a high wound rate/lower kill rate. It's not like Bruce Willis or Chow Yun-Fat in the real world - (usually) -

with 20 wounded and 20+ killed, he must have had a lot of students cornered off and went in there with both guns blazing -

it would explain how he could go from one shooting to the next without setting off a panic - it makes concealing the weapons easier.

at the least, I'd imagine he's had handgun training.

rb

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Well the dorm system there is already treated like a prison -- "gun free" and it goes into "lockdown" during trouble. Maybe the frontrunning presidential canditates can get some publicity pushing for guard towers, spotlights, and german sheperds at every dorm.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

whiskeytown,

Initial reports indicate he wasn't shooting all moving targets. Some of these kids were lined up and shot execution-style. Also, initial reports indicate it was a student. We'll see about the handgun training, but how many college kids have handgun training? Maybe he grew up hunting or something.....

I grew up around guns, and grew up in Colorado. I was just out of high school when Columbine happened, and in college in Denver. I grew up on a farm, and was an avid hunter, as were most of my friends. Farm kids, you know. A couple days after Columbine happened, I was talking on the phone to one of my friends from high school about Columbine. We both agreed that it was terrible, but both had the same thought when the reports came out---it could have been so much worse if it was kids like us that went nuts like that. I don't think most people realized that. Us, and most of our buddies, had lots of experience with guns. In a place like a school, someone with our experience/practice could have done so much worse than those two rejects did. I'm not glorifying this at all, because I don't think it's cool, I'm just telling a story. I'm actually kind of ashamed that we thought this at the time, but in reflection, it's very true.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not correct. Assuming you don't live in a state like CA which has its own seperate magazine restrictions, you can buy 15-round (or whatever) mags locally.

Of course, it really doesn't matter much to someone with some experience -- "low cap" (10-round or less) mags can be swapped out in 2 seconds or less.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
whiskeytown,

Initial reports indicate he wasn't shooting all moving targets. Some of these kids were lined up and shot execution-style.


[/ QUOTE ]

this just gets worse and worse -

I grew up on a farm in Montana, and also know guns pretty well, but being a farm, well, my speciality was sniping gophers with a .22, not handgun accuracy - I suck with handguns still.

rb

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
but it seems to me the experience in these incidents has been a high wound rate/lower kill rate. It's not like Bruce Willis or Chow Yun-Fat in the real world - (usually) -

with 20 wounded and 20+ killed, he must have had a lot of students cornered off and went in there with both guns blazing -

it would explain how he could go from one shooting to the next without setting off a panic - it makes concealing the weapons easier.

at the least, I'd imagine he's had handgun training.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW a family member of mine that works in a police department and has worked on a case like this, has explained to me before that often the police won't reveal some of the details of the shootings like this and even the media will choose not to.

What usually happens is the gunman will shoot people and then when they are down on the ground will go up one by one and head shot them. That's why the casualties are so high. They are trying to kill people not just shoot them.

And to answer the OP. There really isn't that much you can do. This was planned attack by someone who wanted to kill as many people as possible. Pretty impossible to stop unless you want to start putting up feds and metal detectors on every street corner.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

[/ QUOTE ]
Not correct. Assuming you don't live in a state like CA which has its own seperate magazine restrictions, you can buy 15-round (or whatever) mags locally.

Of course, it really doesn't matter much to someone with some experience -- "low cap" (10-round or less) mags can be swapped out in 2 seconds or less.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in CA.

And you are correct. Against unarmed targets, it really doesn't matter how many rounds your mag can hold.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

There is no way to stop someone who is determined to kill people and has no regard for his own life.

If we had an answer suicide bombers would have stopped along time ago.

Caring about one's own life is a major physological barrier. Our biology/evolution has conditioned us to be all about self preservation.

Death is the ultimate deterent from doing something.

Once someone has "snapped" and no longer fears death, or actually WANTS to die, nothing can be done to stop them.

The only thing you can do is train personal and have emergency procedures in place that will minimize the damage these loose cannons cause.

Security measures, say a metal detector, might ID someone with a gun or bomb, but all that does is limit them to killing the personal at the detector, rather than in the building or plane or base or something.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we already have laws that limit the number of shells for some of the high capacity automatics, so he probably had some from before the bill was passed which I believe were still legal.

so I doubt more laws will make a difference.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

Dids said it best in another thread, that no amount of gun control could have stopped this.

IMO, this situation highlights why a 100% ban on firearms doesn't work. Criminals don't care.

How would this story be changed if a gun-toting responsible student put an end to the gunman's life?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that the first conclusion many people are drawing about this is that no amount of gun control would have made a difference.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we already have laws that limit the number of shells for some of the high capacity automatics, so he probably had some from before the bill was passed which I believe were still legal.

so I doubt more laws will make a difference.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

Dids said it best in another thread, that no amount of gun control could have stopped this.

IMO, this situation highlights why a 100% ban on firearms doesn't work. Criminals don't care.

How would this story be changed if a gun-toting responsible student put an end to the gunman's life?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that the first conclusion many people are drawing about this is that no amount of gun control would have made a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's because it's an accurate assertion. The mass murderer was clearly in violation of gun laws and obviously had little regard for the law. Unless you go on a Crusader campaign across the globe, you will always be able to get firearms.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Let's go ahead and make murder "super triple" illegal. That'll be sure to stop it.

Making guns illegal will lead to:

1. A huge underground, black market for guns, and all the elements that come with an underground black market (mafia, violence, etc.)

2. Crude, home-made guns popping up every where. Believe it or not a gun is not THAT sophisticated of a machine. We aren't talking a nuclear reactor here. Anyone with some basic equipment and training will be able to make a functioning firearm.

Do you really think someone who wants to murder as many people as possible gives a flying rat's behind about breaking a "gun" law?

Has making drugs illegal stopped people from buying/selling drugs?

A gun is simply an inanimate lump of metal and/or wood.

People who want to kill others can/will always find a way.

http://www.truthdig.com/images/repor...macity_350.jpg

ZERO guns involved ^^^^

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we already have laws that limit the number of shells for some of the high capacity automatics, so he probably had some from before the bill was passed which I believe were still legal.

so I doubt more laws will make a difference.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

Dids said it best in another thread, that no amount of gun control could have stopped this.

IMO, this situation highlights why a 100% ban on firearms doesn't work. Criminals don't care.

How would this story be changed if a gun-toting responsible student put an end to the gunman's life?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that the first conclusion many people are drawing about this is that no amount of gun control would have made a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many gun laws are on the books now? 19,000? 29,000? Something like that. They were obviously effective in this case, weren't they? Gun control laws do virtually nothing to curb gun violence.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

It's only an accurate assertion if you assume that in all these killings, the gunman will go to any length to acquire firearms, so more stringent laws wouldn't make any difference. I have no idea how true that is in this case, but it clearly isn't always, or even often, accurate across the board.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

What exactly can we do to prevent something like this? Nothing! The fact of the matter is when there is a random unforseen act of violence like this, there's nothing you can do about it! If a crazy person wants to get some guns and go on a killing spree, how can he be stopped? He gets to choose the time and place. I'm sure after this there will be much better security at Va Tech. But what about the local mall? What about the public library? A hospital? Unless you want to live in a police state with armed guards on every corner, this sort of thing will always be with us.

I'd say the average person has a better chance of getting struck by lightning than being killed in a random killing spree. In the VAST majority of murders, the two people know each other.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we already have laws that limit the number of shells for some of the high capacity automatics, so he probably had some from before the bill was passed which I believe were still legal.

so I doubt more laws will make a difference.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

Dids said it best in another thread, that no amount of gun control could have stopped this.

IMO, this situation highlights why a 100% ban on firearms doesn't work. Criminals don't care.

How would this story be changed if a gun-toting responsible student put an end to the gunman's life?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that the first conclusion many people are drawing about this is that no amount of gun control would have made a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many gun laws are on the books now? 19,000? 29,000? Something like that. They were obviously effective in this case, weren't they? Gun control laws do virtually nothing to curb gun violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible argument.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think they're saying he had two 9MMs and lots of clips of ammo.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, we already have laws that limit the number of shells for some of the high capacity automatics, so he probably had some from before the bill was passed which I believe were still legal.

so I doubt more laws will make a difference.

rb

[/ QUOTE ]

If you possess high caps purchased before 2000, they are legal. That being said, no college-aged kid today can own those legally.

Dids said it best in another thread, that no amount of gun control could have stopped this.

IMO, this situation highlights why a 100% ban on firearms doesn't work. Criminals don't care.

How would this story be changed if a gun-toting responsible student put an end to the gunman's life?

[/ QUOTE ]

I find it interesting that the first conclusion many people are drawing about this is that no amount of gun control would have made a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many gun laws are on the books now? 19,000? 29,000? Something like that. They were obviously effective in this case, weren't they? Gun control laws do virtually nothing to curb gun violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a terrible argument.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your convincing rebuttal.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Needs more info but there are those who are going to use this as an excuse to argue more people should own guns. I guess in their minds if a bunch of other students also had guns, that somehow the increased bumber of bullets flying would have been safer...or something.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Okay, well by your logic, since they weren't effective in this instance, let's get rid of all gun control laws. Do you see why this is a lousy argument?

Obviously, if this guy had had an extremely hard time getting his hands on a gun and had gotten past his psychotic episode, or whatever, we wouldn't be having this conversation. I have no doubt this has happened before thanks to gun control laws, and would happen more, if existing laws were stricter.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Why does a particular bullet need a "government stamp of approval" to increase your safety? If it kills the attacker, how much does it matter if there was a cop on one end of it?

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Also, note that I am not calling for a nationwide ban on handguns, or for the 2nd amendment to be repealed.

Edited to add: I'm not going to post any more for a while on this--it feels kind of unseemly arguing politics so soon after such a tragedy. Peace and good luck to those actually having to deal with the aftermath.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Who are these madmen and how much education they possess?

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20020...=krueger062402

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/busine...agewanted=print

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

I think that it is obvious that these types of shootings could be limited if guns were banned or more tightly controlled in the U.S. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in England or Europe, and I'm sure there are plenty of crazy people there.

And yes obviously people can still build truck bombs, or fly airplanes into buildings, personally though I would say I would feel safer if guns were outlawed or restricted more.

However, this is not going to happen. These school or workplace shootings happen pretty rarely, so to be honest I don't spend much time thinking about them. I think gun use in normal run of the mill crime use is more distressing.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Not too much you can do when someone go's postal... Too easy to obtain firearms and produce other explosives in this country...

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Is this thread really necessary?

I feel that it trivializes a very serious, horrific event.

Out of respect for the incident and the fact that we only have incomplete information, perhaps it can wait.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is obvious that these types of shootings could be limited if guns were banned or more tightly controlled in the U.S. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in England or Europe, and I'm sure there are plenty of crazy people there.

And yes obviously people can still build truck bombs, or fly airplanes into buildings, personally though I would say I would feel safer if guns were outlawed or restricted more.

However, this is not going to happen. These school or workplace shootings happen pretty rarely, so to be honest I don't spend much time thinking about them. I think gun use in normal run of the mill crime use is more distressing.

[/ QUOTE ]

How soon you forget the horror of Breslan? Did that happen in a place that tightly controlled firearms?

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is obvious that these types of shootings could be limited if guns were banned or more tightly controlled in the U.S. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in England or Europe, and I'm sure there are plenty of crazy people there.

And yes obviously people can still build truck bombs, or fly airplanes into buildings, personally though I would say I would feel safer if guns were outlawed or restricted more.

However, this is not going to happen. These school or workplace shootings happen pretty rarely, so to be honest I don't spend much time thinking about them. I think gun use in normal run of the mill crime use is more distressing.

[/ QUOTE ]

How soon you forget the horror of Breslan? Did that happen in a place that tightly controlled firearms?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is obvious that these types of shootings could be limited if guns were banned or more tightly controlled in the U.S. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in England or Europe, and I'm sure there are plenty of crazy people there.

And yes obviously people can still build truck bombs, or fly airplanes into buildings, personally though I would say I would feel safer if guns were outlawed or restricted more.

However, this is not going to happen. These school or workplace shootings happen pretty rarely, so to be honest I don't spend much time thinking about them. I think gun use in normal run of the mill crime use is more distressing.

[/ QUOTE ]

How soon you forget the horror of Breslan? Did that happen in a place that tightly controlled firearms?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Breslan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breslan_Massacre

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How would this story be changed if a gun-toting responsible student put an end to the gunman's life?

[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. And it's not like it's never happened before.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Then again, Europe does seem to pair "genocidal maniacs" with "helpless civilians" somewhat more regularly than the United States.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think that it is obvious that these types of shootings could be limited if guns were banned or more tightly controlled in the U.S. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in England or Europe, and I'm sure there are plenty of crazy people there.

And yes obviously people can still build truck bombs, or fly airplanes into buildings, personally though I would say I would feel safer if guns were outlawed or restricted more.

However, this is not going to happen. These school or workplace shootings happen pretty rarely, so to be honest I don't spend much time thinking about them. I think gun use in normal run of the mill crime use is more distressing.

[/ QUOTE ]

How soon you forget the horror of Breslan? Did that happen in a place that tightly controlled firearms?

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Breslan? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breslan_Massacre

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I know what happened at Breslan. I'm confused about how that is related to what I wrote.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Before this turns into a ZOMG AMERICANS ARE CRAZY thread - Montreal last year.

Re: What would you do about Virginia Tech?
 

Arrest him and put him on trial for murder?