another bad river bet-call
 

stars 5/10

Villian is a tough card-reading type capable of moves

I open raise button with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], BB calls

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

villian check-calls

Turn: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

villian check-raises, I call

River: A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

villian check-raises, I call

He thinks I played this bad and I think his probably right. Thoughts?

Ta

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

Why would you bet the turn? I think you have to take a free card there. I think I would bet/call in the end as well, and hate myself for it.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

I understand why you bet the turn, but I think a check is better. I also check behind on the river, you aren't going to make a lot of money betting the river against a tough player IMO.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

calling is fine

nuts or nothing

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

Just wanted to post a link to another thread which might make sense to read along with this hand.

I am villain in Chezlaw's hand above.

Other hand.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

I hate my river play even though I don't like your river bet. I say I don't like it because I won't bluff raise here nearly often enough for you to want to induce it. I don't expect you to ever be bluffing on the river, so I would never check call a made hand instead of betting. So, I'm (pretty much always) just check folding worse hands or check raising better hands, mixed in with a check raise bluff maybe like 1/20 times (which should be 0/20 times)

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

milesdyson tags cc the river with worse hands all the time how is someone supposed to know that u specifically wont

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate my river play even though I don't like your river bet. I say I don't like it because I won't bluff raise here nearly often enough for you to want to induce it. I don't expect you to ever be bluffing on the river, so I would never check call a made hand instead of betting. So, I'm (pretty much always) just check folding worse hands or check raising better hands, mixed in with a check raise bluff maybe like 1/20 times (which should be 0/20 times)

[/ QUOTE ]

So you checked assuming Chez would play the river bad? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Well that is not nice!

If I played this hand against Miles I would check the turn a lot if not always and I would never bet the river. River checks on A's by good players who has shown strength = SEXY so often!

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

I play with chezlaw all the time. Obviously he doesn't know, just like I don't know that he wouldn't bet QJ on that river if I checked to him. Gotta make some assumptions though.

POKERSTARS GAME #9447898784: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($5/$10) - 2007/04/16 - 03:09:41 (ET)
Table 'Suttung' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: coinsofmerit ($145 in chips)
Seat 2: ysscky ($210 in chips)
Seat 3: kryptobear ($150 in chips)
Seat 4: MochaMocha ($137 in chips)
Seat 6: chezlaw ($384 in chips)
coinsofmerit: posts small blind $2
ysscky: posts big blind $5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ysscky [9s 8h]
kryptobear: folds
RedInferno joins the table at seat #5
MochaMocha: folds
chezlaw: raises $5 to $10
coinsofmerit: folds
ysscky: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [5h Tc 9h]
ysscky: checks
chezlaw: bets $5
ysscky: calls $5
*** TURN *** [5h Tc 9h] [5s]
ysscky: checks
chezlaw: bets $10
ysscky: raises $10 to $20
chezlaw: calls $10
*** RIVER *** [5h Tc 9h 5s] [As]
ysscky: checks
chezlaw: bets $10
ysscky: raises $10 to $20
chezlaw: calls $10
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ysscky: shows [9s 8h] (two pair, Nines and Fives)
chezlaw: shows [4h Ah] (two pair, Aces and Fives)
ysscky said, "meh, sick call"
chezlaw collected $110 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $112 | Rake $2
Board [5h Tc 9h 5s As]
Seat 1: coinsofmerit (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: ysscky (big blind) showed [9s 8h] and lost with two pair, Nines and Fives
Seat 3: kryptobear folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: MochaMocha folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: chezlaw (button) showed [4h Ah] and won ($110) with two pair, Aces and Fives

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hate my river play even though I don't like your river bet. I say I don't like it because I won't bluff raise here nearly often enough for you to want to induce it. I don't expect you to ever be bluffing on the river, so I would never check call a made hand instead of betting. So, I'm (pretty much always) just check folding worse hands or check raising better hands, mixed in with a check raise bluff maybe like 1/20 times (which should be 0/20 times)

[/ QUOTE ]

So you checked assuming Chez would play the river bad? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Well that is not nice!

If I played this hand against Miles I would check the turn a lot if not always and I would never bet the river. River checks on A's by good players who has shown strength = SEXY so often!

[/ QUOTE ]
I checked because I was going to check fold. While he waited to bet, I changed my mind and basically was ready to click raise as soon as he bet. If my raise would end up being delayed after his bet, I would have just folded. So maybe he owned me by waiting a little to bet. I don't think he had an easy time calling because he tanked for like 10 seconds.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
I checked because I was going to check fold. While he waited to bet, I changed my mind and basically was ready to click raise as soon as he bet. If my raise would end up being delayed after his bet, I would have just folded. So maybe he owned me by waiting a little to bet. I don't think he had an easy time calling because he tanked for like 10 seconds.

[/ QUOTE ]

My bad. For some reson I thought you had a monster not a bluff.

Anyways I dont think its good to bet/call this river against you or any other good SSSH poster.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hate my river play even though I don't like your river bet. I say I don't like it because I won't bluff raise here nearly often enough for you to want to induce it. I don't expect you to ever be bluffing on the river, so I would never check call a made hand instead of betting. So, I'm (pretty much always) just check folding worse hands or check raising better hands, mixed in with a check raise bluff maybe like 1/20 times (which should be 0/20 times)

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
I checked because I was going to check fold. While he waited to bet, I changed my mind and basically was ready to click raise as soon as he bet. If my raise would end up being delayed after his bet, I would have just folded. So maybe he owned me by waiting a little to bet. I don't think he had an easy time calling because he tanked for like 10 seconds.


[/ QUOTE ]
7 seconds kicking myself, 2.9 seconds thinking about a couple of recent posts and 0.1 seconds thinking that my play seems so horrible (even to me) that maybe you wouldn't expect me to bet and so wouldn't go for a value check-raise so it must be a bluff.

gehrig - [ QUOTE ]
milesdyson tags cc the river with worse hands all the time how is someone supposed to know that u specifically wont

[/ QUOTE ]I'm pretty sure I do know Miles won't pay off enough, so (now) I think I should check.

plain dumb luck in the end.

chez

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

I think the average hand he's peeling w/ on the flop is like 76 so i don't have a problem w/ the turn bet.
River yeah check.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

I feel like this is becoming groupthink. although I've never played with Miles, and I think he is trying to give accurate assupmtions about his play, I don't think you can fold to this check raise.

Checking behind on the river is probably fine, but I guess Miles posts enough abnormal plays (not bad just different opposed to normal TAG play) that I don't think you want to play scared and always check these rivers against him.

so I guess I can agree that checking behind is probably a solid play, but I think bet/call is definitely better than bet/fold.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like this is becoming groupthink. although I've never played with Miles, and I think he is trying to give accurate assupmtions about his play, I don't think you can fold to this check raise.

Checking behind on the river is probably fine, but I guess Miles posts enough abnormal plays (not bad just different opposed to normal TAG play) that I don't think you want to play scared and always check these rivers against him.

so I guess I can agree that checking behind is probably a solid play, but I think bet/call is definitely better than bet/fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone's said bet-fold is good (Miles has a go at the call but I think its mainly the bet bit he hates) and from what I've seen of Miles play I'm not at all convinced I should fold (leaning more towards it being an easier call than I made) but although we've played a fair bit its hardly a common scenario.

but its a horrible spot to put myself in.

chez

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

Against a LAGTAG, I check behind this river 100% - also, I think the turn bet is a leak - one that I have against thinking opponents as well - against Miles (or similar), I have to think that check-turn, call river UI is +EV here. Or maybe that's just because I've been getting pwned lately by getting CR'ed by ~KQ on this board, and whiffing the river and folding...

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

I bet this turn a ton vs standard villains it has alot of value vs worse drawing hands and gets a freeshowdown over 90% of the time. I mite not bet against a player I thought was really tricky or really aggro who i didnt mind checking behind and calling a blank river with an UI A hi tho (which miles does fall into the category of).

I bet this river against most crappy players becuz they ck call a ton of [censored] hands they should either bet fold or ck fold. Vs miles after he cr'd the turn I think Id ck behind and pass up some really thin perhaps non existent value (esp vs him since hes not ck calling Tx here very often). So when he cks its probably a missed draw hes folding or some oddly played PP hes now folding to ur bet, or hes sexying or u risk the cr bluff.

After u bet I think its a fold since he couldnt have been semi-bluffing the turn with AhXh (since u got it) and then check-raising some hand that u split with. I think if he was bluffing 87 or a worse fd hed be more apt to lead the river than check-raise bluff since u ck behind weak pairs u mite fold to a lead (or better drawing hands) and usually only vb hands u wont fold ( im guessing he has the read u dont like to fold for one bet vs showing down esp vs someone like him).

Calling isnt horrible tho (10:1 probably isnt enough to be +EV but its a small mistake at worst), its either nuts or nothin as gehrig said and from what I can tell Miles does get pretty wacky altho ive never played with him.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

You should have been more specific, on the LAGTAG.

Against a 2+2er who knows your a 2+2er AND is capable of pulling moves, bet/call all day. He's wayyyyy more likely to be afraid of the A than he is going for a double c/r.

Why not mix up your play? By checking behind KK/QQ/JJ/9x/Tx here and betting some missed draws like QJ, Hearts as well as aces.. You get the best of both worlds.

You get payed off with your A's or you fold the best hand with your draws.
If he's got trip 5's he's gaining no bets every time you have KK/QQ/JJ/Tx/9x which you probabily have close to as often if not more often than a pair of aces.

Now compare this to when you check all of your hands.
He now has a clear bet with trip 5's, and a clear check with Tx, 9x. You let him outplay you by checking your aces here.


Therefore,
I hate a check and I hate a fold. Well played sir.

Especially vs myles who ive seen pull moves on 2+2ers.

The turn I disagree with all of you looking at this from just this hand alone.

But how Ax of hearts fits into your gameplan I believe is pretty inconsequential.. As long as you are betting this turn with good hands/draws/ace high. Sometimes checking the turn with draws/ace high... Then your good.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
You should have been more specific, on the LAGTAG.

Against a 2+2er who knows your a 2+2er AND is capable of pulling moves, call all day.

IE myles dyson

[/ QUOTE ]IMO, this is also a good argument for checking behind the turn.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

In an FTOP sense I really am going to own the crap out of ace high when you bet the turn HU against me (unless you have the sack to 3-bet me). That doesn't mean I think he misplayed it, because if he checks I'm getting a free card with a billion straight draw hands. Basically what I'm saying is you are only ever putting in two bets with the worst of it by bet/calling ace high. I just don't think there's any real solution to it, though.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

I was thinking about this hand walking from home to campus..
I have to study so I can't go into too much depth, but I changed my mind from it being inconsequential to liking a turn check. I wouldn't check the turn if you were UTG or in the HJ.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Therefore,
I hate a check and I hate a fold. Well played sir.

Especially vs myles who ive seen pull moves on 2+2ers.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think Miles pays off enough?

chez

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

Against a reasonable to good player i think miles should just CR the flop as too often the turn will get checked through. In addition with so many draws possible there is a reasonable chance you will get called down light here. While it runs somewhat contrary to that argument i think your best to also CR your draws here on the flop against this opponent. I save my waiting to the turn plays to when I'm against poor players who may bet fold or will at least bet the turn with hands that i have a large equity edge against. i don't think that is the case here.

If i was hero i would only bet this turn with either top pair overpair or a big draw eg QJ (or as hero has the nut flush draw) which i figure to have over ten outs. I would frequently 3 bet both the made hand and the draw esp if the draw has some showdown value which QJ, A$s has here and there is some chance villain can fold.

That being said i'm not keen on miles turn CR if he has any respect for hero's play he should be putting him on a strong hand here.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

can i just ask what hands u are owning him with here Miles? 5x seems like about it. 99 TT and sometimes 55 3bet pre and those and T9 or AT KT QT probaby cr the flop the vast majority of the time (do u ever play those this way?). I think a bet here has decent value vs most.

And yeah he probably doesnt get 2 bets in good that often (altho a semibluff with a worse drawing hand definitely happens at times on this turn so thats not true either). But that doesnt mean we shouldnt necessarily bet just becuz the frequency of a (legit) check-raise isnt very high here. I think vs someone like u I probably prefer to check and call any river raising a heart but I think its pretty close.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Against a reasonable to good player i think miles should just CR the flop as too often the turn will get checked through. In addition with so many draws possible there is a reasonable chance you will get called down light here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Totally agree

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

T95 double suited flop and you guys think people check the turn a lot? I'd check a lot, but almost everyone puts you on a loose peel and bets almost every time. And then they call down the check raise with AJ. It's sick.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

so u do play hands like JT this way then ur saying? ck call the flop to cr most turns?

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therefore,
I hate a check and I hate a fold. Well played sir.

Especially vs myles who ive seen pull moves on 2+2ers.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think Miles pays off enough?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll answer your question with another question
Would you ever bet KJ/QJ/78s/KQ/J8 here if those were your hands instead?
If you're not betting a pair of aces, what would you bet that you wouldn't 3-bet the turn with?

Do you think Miles has any reason to bet/fold a pair here?

The only reason I'd want to check the river is if I thought myles range compoesd of exlcusivly air and trip 5's. I dont think this is close to true.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
T95 double suited flop and you guys think people check the turn a lot? I'd check a lot, but almost everyone puts you on a loose peel and bets almost every time. And then they call down the check raise with AJ. It's sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, I should think more about "good 2barrelling boards" from villian's pov but I don't cause I'm results-oriented & always guess wrong [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
I tend to Cbet ~T9xx boards myself...

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therefore,
I hate a check and I hate a fold. Well played sir.

Especially vs myles who ive seen pull moves on 2+2ers.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think Miles pays off enough?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll answer your question with another question
Would you ever bet KJ/QJ/78s/KQ/J8 here if those were your hands instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair point but I don't have/bet them enough for Miles to call (and he know it). Not saying I shouldn't have/bet them often enough for him to call.

chez

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

wow sickening hand, i agree with the river tho, i dont like betting here for value cuz its a tight spot. Against weaker opponents i'd bet here but not against yssky

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Therefore,
I hate a check and I hate a fold. Well played sir.

Especially vs myles who ive seen pull moves on 2+2ers.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think Miles pays off enough?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll answer your question with another question
Would you ever bet KJ/QJ/78s/KQ/J8 here if those were your hands instead?

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair point but I don't have/bet them enough for Miles to call (and he know it). Not saying I shouldn't have/bet them often enough for him to call.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'd be amazed how surprinslgy little we know about the subtle differences between various TAG's games. While most 2+2ers play almost identical fundamentals, their frequences in sitautions like this can differ substantially.

Why not save yourself a headache and take solice in the fact that if the only hands he has are bluffs and trip 5's, you can check behind all your other pairs worse than a pair of aces and profit. He's now losing money AGAINST YOUR RANGE by checking the river with trip 5's. This is because your range is composed of less aces than 9x,Tx, JJ-KK and you would likely call his bet with a lot of them. (you are checking or folding a lot of ace high hands on the turn)

You still come out ahead by him being fancy.. Also, if he decides to call your bet.. Well now you gain too. If you find out later on 2+2 that he folded Tx, then start bluffing :P

If you have a specific read (I'm sure myles wouldnt do blah blah blah) than use it. If not, you might as well play so he can't outplay you. For all you know, he has a read.
Assuming you wouldn't also check trip 5's in his situation, you've already won the battle of mistakes in this hand and made a bit of money.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
T95 double suited flop and you guys think people check the turn a lot? I'd check a lot, but almost everyone puts you on a loose peel and bets almost every time. And then they call down the check raise with AJ. It's sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

No i think the average player would bet the turn alot but in this specifc example i would expect a decent 2+2 to check here. Most people in this thread seem to want to check against you with Ax so that makes this a flop raise.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

They say they want to check because I check raised. No one knew how I played until now. You shouldn't expect a TAG to c/c, c/r made hands too often, and without knowledge that they do this, you should be betting the turn and taking the free showdown.

Plus chezlaw 3-bets drawy boards with overcards and takes free cards. If he never did this I would be more likely to just check raise the flop.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
Plus chezlaw 3-bets drawy boards with overcards

[/ QUOTE ]

O'rly, don't think i've c/r/folded vs. him ever but now i have to make sure [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
They say they want to check because I check raised. No one knew how I played until now. You shouldn't expect a TAG to c/c, c/r made hands too often, and without knowledge that they do this, you should be betting the turn and taking the free showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm suprised people are suggesting I check this turn (makes more sense from your p.o.v as I could have a much less).

but then this whole thread has been suprising and very interesting. At least no-one says we did anything wrong pre flop [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

chez

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

Here's my take.

Preflop: Standard raise. Standard defend.

Flop: Standard cbet on your part. I guess my call is not standard, but I think calling planning to check raise most turns is a better plan on this board. Why? Because I think you'll (correctly) bet the turn with almost your whole range, and I think my line looks weird/bluffy enough to get you to call down with AK.

Turn: I think you have to bet this because of how many straight possibilities there are. I don't think you expect me to have a pair very often, and that's a good expectation. I know this too, so I follow through with the plan I made on the flop. You make the call with your draw. FWIW I am almost positive that 3-betting here is the best play for you to make. My range doesn't have many 5x hands, but it does have a ton of 9x hands, pairs like 66, and some Tx hands. I'm basically folding everything but 5x to a 3-bet here. Please don't ever do this, though, haha.

River: This is where it's weird.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
They say they want to check because I check raised. No one knew how I played until now. You shouldn't expect a TAG to c/c, c/r made hands too often, and without knowledge that they do this, you should be betting the turn and taking the free showdown.



[/ QUOTE ]

this was pretty much one of the main points i was trying to drive at more or less (and why I was asking questions about how u play) when I was saying i usually bet the turn vs standard villains. And why i was so curious to hear why u said a turn bet was an issue vs u here. I remember at one point u saying u hadnt taken the ck call ck raise line with TPGK or TPMK in a long time and hardly ever do. It seems like so much of ur range on the turn would be semi-bluffs its not even a bad calldown UI, but really a tag should be check-raising the turn so seldomly here (5x is literally the only legit hand, the boards too drawy not to check-raise the flop altho I guess I should start thinking 2nd level about what boards are good for villains to two barrel A hi with) betting for a freeshowdown seems like a no brainer vs all ur worse drawing hands and loose peels wed rather not give a freecard to IMO.

I wonder if this is a spot where we should be have some balance or mixed strategy to be optimal vs observant opponents we play often? I think it should be weighted towards betting to some degree tho.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

jstill,

What I said earlier was that in an FTOP sense I am going to own ace high on the turn as far as getting bets in. I didn't say he should check, though. I will peel these flops with gutshots which have somewhere between 7 and 9 outs (I think that's right accounting for his nut heart outs) against his ace high. I'll also fold some better aces (or at least aces which have many splitting outs now that the board has paired).

I'm really not sure about his turn play because I don't know how often I play certain hands certain ways. He definitely didn't expect me to play Tx/9x this way, so I think his turn bet is perfect given what he knew.

Re: another bad river bet-call
 

[ QUOTE ]
T95 double suited flop and you guys think people check the turn a lot? I'd check a lot, but almost everyone puts you on a loose peel and bets almost every time. And then they call down the check raise with AJ. It's sick.

[/ QUOTE ]

fwiw I rarely call down a turn c/r with AJ on this board against this type (or just about any non lagtard) of player.

I think heisenberg is right in that lots of TAGs vary their play and play this board different ways depending on mood, how well they are running, their opinion about the villain, recently shown down hands, etc.

I think this is the case where there isn't a definite right or wrong way to play it.