There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

Table was slightly loose, quite aggressive PF - I was pretty sure PFR was not trying to steal here.

PFR/CO is 67/3.7/1.7 for only 27 hands.
BB is 58/0/0.07 for about 80 hands.
MP is 63/15/1.35 for only 46 hands.

Comments on all streets welcome.

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, 1 fold</font>, CO raises</font>, 1 fold</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Do you prefer an iso- 3-bet here? I don't think I had a specific reason to just call rather than 3-bet here, but looking at the limpers' stats, I seriously doubt a 3-bet would have gotten it HU. My plan was essentially to call, and c/r PFR on a safe-flop.

Flop: (8 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, MP2 checks, CO bets</font>, Hero raises</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

The two CC's are very disturbing. Obviously, I feel a large percentage of the time, one of them is on the FD.

Turn: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)</font>
Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Standard.

River: (12 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)</font>
Hero...

CO's playing is entirely consistent w/ KQ - and the other two could easily have been on a FD.

So, do I:

C/C?
B/C?
B/F?

And how does overcalls or multiway showdown influence the correct answer here? That is, if you believe the correct play here is to B/C, is it more or less correct to call a raise if another player calls before us?


Thanks,
Christian

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

this is a must-3bet preflop and the hand will play differently. with tt, you don't want lots of hands like a4 and k7 coming along -- you want fewer people seeing the flop since overcards to your tens are fairly likely to hit.

as you played it, c/ring the flop doesn't drive anyone out, because of your position. it just builds a bigger pot since everyone in for one bet is staying in for one more. i might have bet right out hoping to 3bet.

i think i still bet the river and see what happens.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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as you played it, c/ring the flop doesn't drive anyone out, because of your position. it just builds a bigger pot since everyone in for one bet is staying in for one more. i might have bet right out hoping to 3bet.


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Sure it does. Check out the hand again. BB and MP haven't called any bets on the flop before they face my c/r.

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i think i still bet the river and see what happens.

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And if a player raises, I call no? - well I think that's a pretty obvious yes.
And I think folding to a 3-bet is also obvious.

But I don't know how I feel about making an overcall to a raise on this river.
What do you think?

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

my bad, i totally messed up the flop action somehow. sorry about that.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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The two CC's are very disturbing. Obviously, I feel a large percentage of the time, one of them is on the FD.

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CO's playing is entirely consistent w/ KQ

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These are both incorrect, DUCY?

As played, I like the cool-call here. Your stats on CO are obviously not that great, but 27 hands is enough to know that he does not raise light, and you don't want to be 3-betting OOP to a possible monster. But you'll have two other dummies padding the pot.

Flop raise is meh; a 67 VPIP means that his 1.7 AF is psychonuts, so he's betting with an awful lot here, and you may still be good. The problem is the times you're not you're just bloating the pot.

Why, in the name of God, after you hit your perfect card, did you not check/raise the turn? CO will bet again, and now you have him crushed unless he has JJ. You're also cutting down the proper odds for the other two dopes to draw.

River is a bet; call if either of the two monkeys raise, but fold if superpassive BB raises or if it's ever two back to you.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

Christian,

I don´t mind the pf call. If you had position, i might 3 bet.

Flop good.

Turn good.

Not sure about the river. After thinking, i bet the river. The players are loose. They could cold call with all sort of things.
Im more worried about the cold callers than the CO, though. He could have lots of other hands than KQ.

/Riku

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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Why, in the name of God, after you hit your perfect card, did you not check/raise the turn? CO will bet again, and now you have him crushed unless he has JJ. You're also cutting down the proper odds for the other two dopes to draw.

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That´s an excellent point you´ve got. I didn´t even think of that. But i might be worried if he missed, that he might not bet again with all the callers.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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Why, in the name of God, after you hit your perfect card, did you not check/raise the turn? CO will bet again

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After Hero c-rd the flop? I don't see why you think he'd bet again. Hero has to lead the turn.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

I really like your pre-flop and flop action. Normally I'd 3bet PF but I like your line better. Turn is good. On the river I'd bet and prolly call.

Regarding your question from the OP - I don't know if it's more or less correct to call a raise if another player calls before you, but I don't think it really matters. The chance your hand is good is reduced (sad) but it increases the size of the pot (happy). I figure these factors sorta cancel each other out.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

In a session 3 days ago, I played vs someone who was like 50/0/.5 after 70 hands. He raised preflop UTG, the hand got to showdown and he turned over .... a6s.

This is a 3bet preflop imho, but I can see your reasoning to just call.

Flop&amp;turn seem standard.

River is a bet/call one back to you imho.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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Why, in the name of God, after you hit your perfect card, did you not check/raise the turn? CO will bet again

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After Hero c-rd the flop? I don't see why you think he'd bet again. Hero has to lead the turn.

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He shouldn't have c/r'd the flop. Even still, I think CO will bet a substantial amount of the time; AA-QQ are still "good" in his eyes, and he's a donk.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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He shouldn't have c/r'd the flop. Even still, I think CO will bet a substantial amount of the time; AA-QQ are still "good" in his eyes, and he's a donk.

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I think hero must absolutely check-raise the flop.

If hero is 3-bet on the flop, then check-raise the turn. Otherwise bet and hope to 3-bet.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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He shouldn't have c/r'd the flop. Even still, I think CO will bet a substantial amount of the time; AA-QQ are still "good" in his eyes, and he's a donk.

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I think hero must absolutely check-raise the flop.

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What range are you putting Villain on to make check/raising right? 'Cause I can't see check/raising when JJ+ makes up such a substantial portion of his range unless you're throwing out his accumulated stats entirely. And while 27 hands ain't [censored], it doesn't take a whole lot to figure out this guy rides the short bus.

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If hero is 3-bet on the flop, then check-raise the turn. Otherwise bet and hope to 3-bet.

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If Hero gets raised on this turn after check/raising the flop, he's screwed.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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Why, in the name of God, after you hit your perfect card, did you not check/raise the turn? CO will bet again, and now you have him crushed unless he has JJ. You're also cutting down the proper odds for the other two dopes to draw.


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I really have a hard time understanding why attempting a c/r on the Turn is preferable to leading. CO will likely bet again w/ QQ+, but he won't with AQ+.

I think the times this gets checked through is an absolute disaster. Not only do they all get the free card, but also I'm missing all kinds of value.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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Why, in the name of God, after you hit your perfect card, did you not check/raise the turn? CO will bet again, and now you have him crushed unless he has JJ. You're also cutting down the proper odds for the other two dopes to draw.


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I really have a hard time understanding why attempting a c/r on the Turn is preferable to leading. CO will likely bet again w/ QQ+, but he won't with AQ+.

I think the times this gets checked through is an absolute disaster. Not only do they all get the free card, but also I'm missing all kinds of value.

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Given the C/R on the flop, leading the turn is correct.
I can't imagine CO having QQ+ becuase he didn't re-raise the flop especially with the 2 cold callers not 3-betting. I don't even really put AJ in the likely category. CO did a standard C-bet and is hanging on for some kind of draw, likely overcards of inconsequential suits.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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He shouldn't have c/r'd the flop. Even still, I think CO will bet a substantial amount of the time; AA-QQ are still "good" in his eyes, and he's a donk.

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I think hero must absolutely check-raise the flop.

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What range are you putting Villain on to make check/raising right? 'Cause I can't see check/raising when JJ+ makes up such a substantial portion of his range unless you're throwing out his accumulated stats entirely. And while 27 hands ain't [censored], it doesn't take a whole lot to figure out this guy rides the short bus.

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I'm not assuming villain is a maniac, but I think 99+, AJs+, AQ+, KQs is a reasonable range to give him given his stats. He has position and one limper. There's a wide enough range of hands here that it's worth playing on for this flop (the flop isn't AKx -- in which case this is a no-brainer check-fold). But if it's worth playing on, then you want it to be heads up and not multiway. Therefore, check-raising is the best option. I'm not saying to play this like hero has the nuts, but he has a pretty good hand that's vulnerable, the pot is medium-sized and growing (9 SB), so you've got to play aggressively if you're going to play.



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If hero is 3-bet on the flop, then check-raise the turn. Otherwise bet and hope to 3-bet.

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If Hero gets raised on this turn after check/raising the flop, he's screwed.

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Hero made a set on the turn. Check-raise the turn when this happens. I'm not advocating this line if hero gets 3-bet and a blank falls on the turn.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

Come on guys, you can't take 27 hands and build any kind of reads on those stats alone. I would rather you tell me what the one hand he has raised preflop in those 27 hands is, rather than asign him a 3.7% PFR.

So just 3-bet preflop you pussy. All sorts of good things happen from that, least of which being you get value for your probable best hand. Then lead pretty much any flop.

As played I like the flop c/r. CO will c-bet so often here, and unless he has AA-JJ you are good. Having just the slight chance of making a better hand (i.e. any Jack) fold for this building pot is so cool and the only way to do that is show them two bets.

A flop c/r will also protect your hand against holdings such as A5/A4/A3/A2 and 65.

So now I lead the turn, 3-bet a raise, call down if capped.

You are correct that the river is a bad card vs this many opponents, including two cold-callers, and I don't know what to do. But I sure as hell want to showdown. I probably bet and call a raise, hoping to see 2-pair. Easy fold if faced with two.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

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So just 3-bet preflop you pussy. All sorts of good things happen from that, least of which being you get value for your probable best hand. Then lead pretty much any flop.

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3betting pre-flop without position vs a bunch of opponents we can't isolate, and likely we get stuck on the turn with a 2nd/3rd pair vs multiple opponents.

OP's pre-flop/flop line gives us a better chance to win this UI.

Re: There are 46 possible rivers - this is the worst one
 

Where is the "bunch of opponents"? So far we have a limper and a raiser.

I don't know what the limper has, but I know it isn't better than TT. Raising here forces him to either put in two more bets as a (probably) big dog, or fold, granting us some extra equity. Otherwise what happens is the flop comes 9-high we bet he folds his 55 and CO calls us down with AK.