idiot!
 

lmao at this hand.

Stars $3/6. UTG raises, I 3-bet QQ, BB comes along and UTG caps.

Flop is T52 with two diamonds. check, bet, I raise, BB 3bets, UTG calls, I cap.
Turn is offsuit K. BB checks, UTG bets, I raise, they both call.
River is another 2. Checked to me, I bet, they both call with 88 and JJ.

UTG: "idiot"
Me: "???"
UTG: "That's an idiot bet on the river."
Me: ":)"
UTG: "You will only get called if you're losing"

LOLWTGNH.

Guy.

Re: idiot!
 

I don't bet the river, otherwise I think I like it.

Re: idiot!
 

<--- BBV

But OMG good one.

BTW I am not raising the turn without reads.

Re: idiot!
 

Did he scare quote the "You will only get called if you're losing", in a way that was ironically mocking the 2+2 mindset?

Re: idiot!
 

ask him if he wants to go on a date

Re: idiot!
 

No reads? Turn is very close to a fold. Raise seems horrible with this action.

Re: idiot!
 

and what miles said too

if this turn raise is correct then you should honestly not care what this guy says to you in the chatbox, maybe have a nice can of paint with him and move on. She's a ghost Guy, a ghost you can't chase anymore.

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]
No reads? Turn is very close to a fold. Raise seems horrible with this action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a read that I can really put into words but I was extremely sure I had the best hand. I dunno, the BB's action just seemed like lies and I put the other guy on a decent hand but not as good as mine.

Everybody gets these feelings from time to time, right?

Guy.

Re: idiot!
 

If we just call this turn we will be giving BB exceptional drawing odds if we are ahead. If we are to continue after we get bet into on the turn I'd rather try to knock BB out then just call along and give him odds to draw. Then check the river through vs UTG. So turn is raise or fold in my mind.

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No reads? Turn is very close to a fold. Raise seems horrible with this action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a read that I can really put into words but I was extremely sure I had the best hand. I dunno, the BB's action just seemed like lies and I put the other guy on a decent hand but not as good as mine.

Everybody gets these feelings from time to time, right?

Guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG's play is totally consistent with AK your turn raise was out of line.

Re: idiot!
 

The pot is 13 bb before the turn raise. What's one extra bb to try to improve your chances in this very large pot? And if it doesn't improve you chances any, it still does 2 other things. 1) it improves your equity greatly when you are ahead. And, 2)some % of the time, you'll get away with just spending 2 bb to see a SD. And it's for that reason that I don't like the river bet.

Re: idiot!
 

If you can fold to a 3 bet and check down the river I don't hate raising the turn as BB looks to be either on a draw or have a one pair hand that got scared.

Re: idiot!
 

Sometimes a monster hand will bet because he's suddenly afraid of it getting checked through. But it doesn't happen very often, imo. Once he donks, he either has the King or you're ahead. And this pot is huge: I also like calling down if 3-bet as even if bb folds on the turn, you only have to win 10% of the time.

Re: idiot!
 

I just wanted to repeat that I think this turn decision is between call and fold and not call and raise. I haven't read any poker literature, but judging by what I see in these forums, either I disagree with everything ever written about "raise/fold" turn decisions, or you are all misinterpreting what others have written. The parlay is so massive that you both have the best hand and that you're offering incorrect odds to some drawing hand. It never happens.

Re: idiot!
 

Neither BB or UTG has KK. If hero raises he is faced with at least a 17:1 odds with 2 pretty clean outs and good implied odds. Raise/folding this hand in what is typically an aggressive game in a HUGE pot is so extremely bad I dont even know where to start.

I have read Sklanskys books on LHE. I am pretty sure he advices to raise/fold in a few spots, but I doubt he advices it against tricky opponents in big pots. Plz... Folders dont win!!!

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]
just wanted to repeat that I think this turn decision is between call and fold and not call and raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

First off, yes - I did just re-read SSHE.

Fold is not an option. The decision is between calling and raising, not folding or raising, folding or calling, or anything else involving a fold.

[ QUOTE ]
The parlay is so massive that you both have the best hand and that you're offering incorrect odds to some drawing hand. It never happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) You don't have to be offering incorrect odds for a bet or raise to be correct. You are simply reducing his equity when he's drawing.

2)Nor do you have to have the best hand for raising to be correct. If it buys you a free SD (like in this hand) then clearly raising is better than calling.

The only reason not to raise is to save 2 extra bets. And if Hero knew that he was either crushed or crushing both opponents then he should call because he doesn't gain anything by raising (the same # of bb goes into the pot if he's planning on checking the river through). However, if villains had a total of say 8 outs between them and raising eliminates half of them than raising is correct. He gets an extra 1.5 bb should a 4 outer fold. So he would need to be ahead 4/7 times to make raising correct. And that's assuming he'll never catch a set on the river and that the turn donker will always 3-bet him when ahead and that his queen would never makes bb a straight when bb folds to the two bets on the turn. All in all, he probably only needs to be ahead half as often to make raising correct.

Re: idiot!
 

Oh, I think I may have mis-read what you wrote. You are arguing that the turn is absolutely not a raise/fold situation: Calling down would be better. I agree but raise/calling down is best.

Re: idiot!
 

jt1,
You are not thinking clearly. The only hands you can give bad odds to by raising are {AJ, Q9, Tx, 5x, 2x}. All the other hands would either be getting bad odds for just one bet {Ax,J9,PP's} or good enough odds even for 2 bets {AQ,QJ,A4,A3}. The latter hands + all hands that already beat you outweigh the former when you include the pf and flop action.

Furthermore, you still have to beat UTG who appears to have you crushed (and if not he's way behind, its VERY unlikely he has just a draw).

Finally, you insist on calling down if 3 bet which kills any merits there were to raising.

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]
All the other hands would either be getting bad odds for just one bet {Ax,J9,PP's} or good enough odds even for 2 bets {AQ,QJ,A4,A3}.

[/ QUOTE ]

Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising. Moreover, a turn donk is unlikely to 3-bet you. (If he does, I'd still call down because you are getting 9-1 at worst and 12-1 at best.) If you improve your equity enoiugh then that will make up for the times you get 3-bet.

Re: idiot!
 

UTG did in fact call the river? Then he claims that you would only be called if you were losing? I find that very ironic.

Re: idiot!
 

Given that villain capped preflop and hero capped the flop, what hands other than JJ are we hoping to value raise when villain donks the turn? Surely our equity is nowhere near high enough to raise even if we assume we're beating BB.

Re: idiot!
 

"Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising."
Yeah but ur improving your equity in a smaller pot. This is pretty basic stuff do yourself a favor and corroborate with others you respect cuz obv you're not understanding miles and I.

Re: idiot!
 

Yeah if you're like a 20% favorite against the bettor, the pot has to be unrealistically huge to raise to protect yourself from ~5 outers in the third player's hand.

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]

Given that villain capped preflop and hero capped the flop


[/ QUOTE ]

So this freaked me out and I went back to the original post. I messed it up. He capped flop and I called.

One day I will sort things out so that the machine I play my poker on and the machine I post from are in the same town. Then I will be able to do that "hand history" thing and avoid this kind of stupidity.

Apologies for the mispost.

Anyway, if the hand played as posted, I totally agree that it looks like UTG has a king and reads me for an overpair so I shouldn't raise.

As it was actually played I felt he had an overpair to the flop or a ten so the K didn't hurt me. I really didn't believe BB had anything worthwhile but could be drawing at the diamonds. Hence my turn raise. Still might be a little over the top.

But I am a total idiot for messing up the flop action. I was just too busy laughing about the post hand chat. Laughed all the way to work.

Guy.

Re: idiot!
 

I'd calldown the flop 3bet. Even if raising the turn is good vs. this player why would you cap the flop then?

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising."
Yeah but ur improving your equity in a smaller pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead an ream me, but why is the pot smaller? If BB folds and UTG calls then the pot is bigger than if you had just called and allowed BB to call.


[ QUOTE ]
Yeah if you're like a 20% favorite against the bettor, the pot has to be unrealistically huge to raise to protect yourself from ~5 outers in the third player's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


If BB has a 2 outer than you want him in because his contribution helps soften the blow when you're behind as you probably are. (Though I believe that if you knew that UTG had Jacks and BB had Eights then you should raise to get BB out or pay extravagently....you gain .7 bb by allowing them both to pay 1 bb and gain 1.3 bb by forcing BB out and having UTG pay 2 bb.)

If BB has a 5 outer then his equity is 1.5 bb. By forcing him out you gain those but have to risk 2 bb to do it. If BB calls then you gain .5 bb by risking 2 bb. So if BB calls 50% and folds 50% then you need to be ahead only 33% of the time to make raising correct. Actually, much less than that because UTG will rarely 3-bet you.

If BB has a 9 outer than raising gets you .4 bb. He's still should call but, at least, your gaining equity. But you need to be ahead 80% of the time for raising to be correct: Certainly you ahead far less than that.

If BB has 13 outs then you should definitely not raise.

I said hero should raise because BB most likely has a pair of tens and UTG has a pair of Kings (AK) and won't 3-bet. But now I think that a fd would be just as likely as top pair for BB and for that reason calling down may be better.

But I'll talk this over with my guy. Though I'd appreciate your response too.

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"Either way, you are still improving your equity by raising."
Yeah but ur improving your equity in a smaller pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Go ahead an ream me, but why is the pot smaller? If BB folds and UTG calls then the pot is bigger than if you had just called and allowed BB to call.



[/ QUOTE ]

I meant the pot is smallish compared to the change in equity ur hoping for. Your latest post shows that you're at least considering the right factors so looks like ur on the right track.

Re: idiot!
 

I am either confusing some of the responses here, am flat out missing something, or just plain disagree. Facing the donk on the turn K, if we intend on putting in 2 more bets total, I don't see how raising is not better here. I don't care how many outs the 3rd player has unless it makes him a favorite to win. As long as I am ahead of him now I force him to pay extra to draw or force him out, in either scenario I gain something for the same price as calling down. So how can this not be better than calling down? Is the whole argument against this that the player who donked could 3bet and make us fold a better hand?

Re: idiot!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is the whole argument against this that the player who donked could 3bet and make us fold a better hand?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, or make us pay 2 more bb.