observed stars 200/400
 

After skimming the stars thread, I decided to download the software, and found pokkermon playing 3 handed. Curious about his style, since the consensus in the thread was that he is very good. From the several hands I watched, he seemed (as one would prolly expect) very aggressive, 3 betting liberally from the bb (i.e. 67s). So here is a hand:

YoungGuyy raises otb. hyeroller474 3bets. pokkermon caps. hopefully no one minds me using the names - i dont have any info on these players, so i was hoping some of you might know a little about them. Anyway, pokerrmon won a nice pot, and showed A8o.

Post flop was uninteresting - just curious about the cold cap here, since I would never consider doing this. All I can think of is that bb was 3betting super light, and the button was likely to fold, since 3 handed the button will raise almost anything. Could anyone (preferably w/ knowledge of the other players) elaborate on pokkermon's play, here?

Just wanted to study his play a bit, since he seems to be held in high esteem - does he post here? Also, stars is annoying since the hand history does not reveal mucked hands [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Peace.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

he is aggro, he puts the pressure on others, others know this and loosen up to try taking advantage of this, he does it so it is hard to read him on other hands where he is really pushing with monsters. Good style, u must be a great player to use this at high stakes.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

Granted, I've not played him much, but capping A8o is generally terrible... even in high stakes 3 handed games. That said, if he did think he could fold the BU, and the SB was a complete 3B monkey+horrible postflop, I could see occasionally making a play like this. This particular parlay almost never happens, but I could see the remote possibility.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

how did postflop go?

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

Standard for this game as SB is probably 3 betting 50% of his hands or more.

-DeathDonkey

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

hes clearly just another fish that ran hot and will eventually dump it all back playing like this.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
Standard for this game as SB is probably 3 betting 50% of his hands or more.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]


BU = 60% of hands
SB = 50% of hands


equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 34.846% 31.98% 02.86% 36460 3264.17 { A8o }
Hand 1: 32.124% 30.37% 01.75% 34623 1997.67 { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J2s+, T3s+, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, A2o+, K2o+, Q5o+, J7o+, T7o+, 97o+, 87o }
Hand 2: 33.030% 30.88% 02.15% 35202 2451.17 { 33+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T8o+, 98o }



And I personally don't think the SB 3B 50% of hands, and even so, capping a hand that doesn't play well post-flop is just bad without having some kind of other motivation for capping (BU prone to folding 2 cold 3 handed? not likely)...

I stand by my earlier statements even though if your range is correct we have nearly even hot/cold equity.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
Standard for this game as SB is probably 3 betting 50% of his hands or more.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

If button is opening any two, and small blind really was 3betting 50% (dont think he was here, though), what are the worst hands you would cap with? Anything you would just call with?

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

Ok couple things. Button is opening more than 60% of his hands here. When I play 3 handed I open like 75% and these 200/400 guys might be damn near 100% as far as I've seen. Also if the button folds the bottom of his range for two more (as I do when the BB is at all sane) then our hot/cold equity goes up a ton, which you didn't account for. Also, these sims just aren't that useful, there are plenty of flops where we will still have ace high and button will be totally unable to continue but this sim doesn't account for playability. I think pokerstove is the most misused tool ever to be honest.

-DeathDonkey

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

"hen I play 3 handed I open like 75% and these 200/400 guys might be damn near 100% as far as I've seen."

heh, i open 47%. guess im a nit.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok couple things. Button is opening more than 60% of his hands here. When I play 3 handed I open like 75% and these 200/400 guys might be damn near 100% as far as I've seen. Also if the button folds the bottom of his range for two more (as I do when the BB is at all sane) then our hot/cold equity goes up a ton, which you didn't account for. Also, these sims just aren't that useful, there are plenty of flops where we will still have ace high and button will be totally unable to continue but this sim doesn't account for playability. I think pokerstove is the most misused tool ever to be honest.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]


What button that ever opens 75% finds a fold getting 13:1 very often? In the games I play, you will be forced to fire two damn near every time into two opponents.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

yeah, i dont think pokkermon has been playing well recently, and its because of spots like this, at least partially. horrible cap IMO

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok couple things. Button is opening more than 60% of his hands here. When I play 3 handed I open like 75% and these 200/400 guys might be damn near 100% as far as I've seen. Also if the button folds the bottom of his range for two more (as I do when the BB is at all sane) then our hot/cold equity goes up a ton, which you didn't account for. Also, these sims just aren't that useful, there are plenty of flops where we will still have ace high and button will be totally unable to continue but this sim doesn't account for playability. I think pokerstove is the most misused tool ever to be honest.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I love that the guy who thinks that people are open raising with 60% of their hands and who opens with 75% of his hands thinks PokerStove is the most misused tool ever.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

- Andrew

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ok couple things. Button is opening more than 60% of his hands here. When I play 3 handed I open like 75% and these 200/400 guys might be damn near 100% as far as I've seen. Also if the button folds the bottom of his range for two more (as I do when the BB is at all sane) then our hot/cold equity goes up a ton, which you didn't account for. Also, these sims just aren't that useful, there are plenty of flops where we will still have ace high and button will be totally unable to continue but this sim doesn't account for playability. I think pokerstove is the most misused tool ever to be honest.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I love that the guy who thinks that people are open raising with 60% of their hands and who opens with 75% of his hands thinks PokerStove is the most misused tool ever.

[img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

- Andrew

[/ QUOTE ]


i dont get it - it is often misused, and poster has high stakes experience and likely has a good idea of how these games go.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

It's a perfect example of GIGO.

- Andrew

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

This definitely falls into the "don't try this at home, kids" category.

But I've played a ton against pokker and no one play of pokker's should be considered in isolation. He understands the dynamics that flow from his preflop cap and plays postflop accordingly.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

Someone who understands me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

This is of course not standard play from me, but the 2-4 game on stars is probably the most loose limit game right now. So I think capping with A8o there sometimes is not a disaster.

Btw, hyeroller had QJs.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's a perfect example of GIGO.

- Andrew

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl i just looked up gigo.

he sf, arent you too smart to fall for such things?

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok couple things. Button is opening more than 60% of his hands here. When I play 3 handed I open like 75% and these 200/400 guys might be damn near 100% as far as I've seen. Also if the button folds the bottom of his range for two more (as I do when the BB is at all sane) then our hot/cold equity goes up a ton, which you didn't account for. Also, these sims just aren't that useful, there are plenty of flops where we will still have ace high and button will be totally unable to continue but this sim doesn't account for playability. I think pokerstove is the most misused tool ever to be honest.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're overestimating Button's ranges by a pretty large amount here.

Rob

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

This whole thread confuses me. I have tons of respect for Andrew Prock but no clue what he is saying about my comments.

Entity, ok, if button is not opening 75% or more of his hands here, obviously I am overestimating. I don't play in this game, on stars, or 200/400 online, so my opinion doesn't mean all that much and I don't know the players.

-DeathDonkey

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

dd, i think prock is saying its a mistake to open 75% of your hands on the button.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

I haven´t played higher than 100/200, but you seriously think people open almost anything on the button in very aggressive games, shouldn´t they play tighter than in less aggressive games with worse players ?

75% of hands, if you take the default in pokerstove, is: 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T2s+,92s+,83s+,73s+,63s+,5 2s+,43s,A2o+,K2o+,Q2o+,J4o+,T6o+,96o+,86o+,75o+,65 o, you seriously open this wide ?!
Personally I think over 50% on the button is high and probably do like ~45%, also 3betting 50% seems completely suicidal from the sb, since you pretty much just bloat the pot oop with crap hands most of the time. I think sklansky recommended 15% or so for sb defense 3-handed, while alot of people are probably at 20%, while not many good players are above 30%, atleast in the games I used to play.

You are right that the sims doesn´t favor position and initiative like it should though.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

He must think that he will get to take it down fairly often unimproved.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

So I thought maybe I was way wrong on my stats based on the responses so I checked PT for my 3 handed play from last 6 months. In that time I've played a whopping 5000 hands of 3 handed and I am 70/70 from the button. So I was close to right. I am winning 0.13 bb/hand from the button over that time, no clue what a good winrate is there. I am also winning 0.01 bb/hand from SB and BB so maybe its just a hot run, it seems unlikely I'd be positive in both blinds.

-DeathDonkey

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

I do 50% DD so 70 seems slightly outrageous to me. I am also losing in both the blind positions -0.03 and -0.05 sb and bb respectively and trucking +0.19 on the button.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

dd, props for opening 70%+ hands on the button. I don't think its optimal, but thats just awesome (and i mean that with absolutely no sarcasm). FWIW, I open 50-55% but I'll admit I've been trying to cut it down. BTW, I'm curious, how much do you guys' steal ranges open up when its 3 handed vs 6 handed? what about 6 handed vs 10 handed?

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
Someone who understands me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

This is of course not standard play from me, but the 2-4 game on stars is probably the most loose limit game right now. So I think capping with A8o there sometimes is not a disaster.

Btw, hyeroller had QJs.

[/ QUOTE ]

hey man, thanks for the response. you seem to be highly respected around here, which is why i was checking you out in the 1st place. hopefully you can start posting here more often - would love to learn from you.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

would very much like to hear from JA Sucker once again. In his video, he says you can usually open 100% from the button 3 handed. i have experimented a little with this, and it seems the blinds catch on quickly (yet i still take down quite a few as well). Definitely would like to hear sucker elaborate on this play, and on exactly when and how it should be adjusted (either b/c there is a maniac in the blinds preventing you from ever stealing, or b/c the blinds adjust).

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

[ QUOTE ]
he says you can usually open 100% from the button 3 handed

[/ QUOTE ]

Lol, try it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

i would love to hear explanations on why your button range should matter if there are 3, 6, 10 or 22 players at the table.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

Actually it should get looser b/c players who gravitate towards fullring are generally much less adapt at playing their blinds imo. But there is always the dreaded BUNCHING which means that if there are 22 folds one of the blinds always has aces or at worst kings.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

Sound strange to me, tbh, id prolly steal more when having the chance to open in a game with more players, than a 3-handed game as people tend to defend less and worse.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

i dont see any reason why the number of players at a table should affect your stealing range, unless this factor is affecting the blinds defending range or their perception of your stealing range.

In other words, if the blinds are using the same defense tactics in both a 10 handed and 3 handed game there is no reason why you would steal more.

If anything blinds loosen up in shorter games because they expect you to be stealing more loosely so I would play tighter from the button.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

That was what I was trying to say. Still think opening 70% in a loose aggro 3-handed game seems kinda wack. Could understand it in a full ring game where your opponents are in the tighter side and defends worse and also wont realize how much you open as it doesn´t fold around to your button that often.

Honestly, I´d feel like I´d be lagging it up quite a bit if I opened 50%.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

Explanation of the bunching effect:
an argument for tightening up your steal 10-handed vs 3-handed is the bunching effect. basically, the concept as buffsta described is that in a 10 handed game, if everyone folded in front of you and you are on the button, the higher quality cards (aces, kings, etc) have a slightly higher probability of being in the small or big blind's hands. This effect is miniscule however, and i remember reading somewhere in this forum that it's basically a non-issue in practice.

Re: observed stars 200/400
 

I was messing around regarding the bunching effect because I hate when people use non sensical reasons to explain stuff. The only reason to change your ranges from any position is the nature of the players still to act. In some games opening a greater range of hands is more profitable in others its not simple as that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]