Creating Value in the Forum
 

Periodically, we get these complaints about the supposed quality of this forum from disgruntled folks whose threads do not get the "attention" they deserve. I was reading a thread today, and it occured to me that there's at least 1 good way many of us could add some value to this forum.

I think we can all agree that trivial threads are pretty boring. Standard question, easy answer, snide remark about the newb question, thread over. Not to pick on lemming, but he recently posted this thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...e=0#Post9934617

Basically, if you don't want to read it, he had 55 on a healthy stack in the BB, some guy who he thought was tight pushed in MP for 10xBB after a UTG limp, and he wondered if he could call, and a bunch of people told him, no, easy fold. And that's great, now lemming knows that spot was a fold, but nobody really learned anything interesting.

But the thread doesn't have to end there. Telling him that's a fold answers his question and maybe helps a few newer players who had a similar question, but doesn't add value to anyone who has been around long enough to know that's a fold.

To me, that particular thread poses at least a few additional questions.
1) What is our range to get involved in this hand? 55 might not be in it, but what about 88, or AQ?
2) Do we reraise to isolate with that entire range, or is there a part of the range where we would just flat-call?
3) If the shortie was half the size, would we isolate with some hands we might flat-call with at his current size?

So my suggestion, particularly for the posters who have been here longer, is to not just post a 2 word answer to a simple thread. Give the two word answer, sure...but then also look at that spot and try to see if there's something more than could be learned from it. Try to think of ways to shift the situation that might make a boring decision more interesting. What if the stack sizes were a bit different? What if positions were different? What if we had a particular read?

Essentially, try to turn a trivial, boring thread into something interesting. Try to learn something from a thread, don't just post the "right answer" and move on to the next one, actually take the time to consider if the thread could lead to some interesting discussion...and make the effort to lead it that way.

You won't constantly improve your game by answering questions you already have answered before. You will improve your game by trying to come up with a strategy for a spot where you develop an understanding of how you might play differently based on notable factors (hand strength, stack size, position, reads).

Just my $0.02 for the day. Obviously welcome to discussion on this...and other suggestions people have for other ways in which we, as a community, can make this place a more valuable learning tool for all of us.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Seke

The thing about you that made you make this constructive post is probably the same thing that makes you one of the 10-15 people in this forum who I consider my favorite posters.

Although this is a good forum, it does have room for improvement. I 100% agree with the points you listed, and that's probably something we should all think about the next time we answer a post.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Spot on Seke.

In another forum a mod suggested the less experienced/newcomer should answer posts themselves even though the answers are likely to be incorrect or sub-optimum. Develop a thick skin and jump in. You will retain more by being involved/arguing than simply lurking. Shrug off the insults and keep asking the better players to explain "I fold".

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Why is Dan not a mod yet?

In general the noob responses in general that so many had, the 'holier than thou' type stuff really derails the threads. I'm speaking from my experience like 6 months ago, but ya, the more discussion and fewer snide remarks the better.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Everytime I read a thread I look for these type of responses and have learned more from one or two well thought out posts then 1000 2 word answers. I can't say how many times I've read a thread and said to myself I know that's the right answer but I really don't know all the reasons why. I feel the difference there closes the gap between average and great.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Two words

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

If a posted thread is truly trivial why not have a mod move it to the beginner's forum? It might be an opportunity for some newer/less experienced posters to respond in a less threatening environment, and it would improve the quality of this forum.

Joe

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Sorry, i just couldnt resist the previous post.

Seke, you are dead on as always. I also agree that Noobs should answer more than trying to start a new post. I didnt start very many posts back when I was a noobie and still got lots of great anwsers and got flammed for being a noob with a dumb question. It really helps you to develop your game and see the logic behind how you should have thought about the hand and seeing that maybe there are more optimal lines available.

I dont mind the snide remarks if the guy saying them can back it up. If guys like Shaundeeb and Nath say something and it comes off as arrogant, then so be it, they can back it up. I cant be the arrogant one, yet, someday maybe, but not this week. Thats also not my personality anyway, but you get the idea. I like jokes.

So much for that tangent, lol.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Periodically, we get these complaints about the supposed quality of this forum from disgruntled folks whose threads do not get the "attention" they deserve. I was reading a thread today, and it occured to me that there's at least 1 good way many of us could add some value to this forum.

I think we can all agree that trivial threads are pretty boring. Standard question, easy answer, snide remark about the newb question, thread over. Not to pick on lemming, but he recently posted this thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...=0#Post9934617

Basically, if you don't want to read it, he had 55 on a healthy stack in the BB, some guy who he thought was tight pushed in MP for 10xBB after a UTG limp, and he wondered if he could call, and a bunch of people told him, no, easy fold. And that's great, now lemming knows that spot was a fold, but nobody really learned anything interesting.

But the thread doesn't have to end there. Telling him that's a fold answers his question and maybe helps a few newer players who had a similar question, but doesn't add value to anyone who has been around long enough to know that's a fold.

To me, that particular thread poses at least a few additional questions.
1) What is our range to get involved in this hand? 55 might not be in it, but what about 88, or AQ?
2) Do we reraise to isolate with that entire range, or is there a part of the range where we would just flat-call?
3) If the shortie was half the size, would we isolate with some hands we might flat-call with at his current size?

So my suggestion, particularly for the posters who have been here longer, is to not just post a 2 word answer to a simple thread. Give the two word answer, sure...but then also look at that spot and try to see if there's something more than could be learned from it. Try to think of ways to shift the situation that might make a boring decision more interesting. What if the stack sizes were a bit different? What if positions were different? What if we had a particular read?

Essentially, try to turn a trivial, boring thread into something interesting. Try to learn something from a thread, don't just post the "right answer" and move on to the next one, actually take the time to consider if the thread could lead to some interesting discussion...and make the effort to lead it that way.

You won't constantly improve your game by answering questions you already have answered before. You will improve your game by trying to come up with a strategy for a spot where you develop an understanding of how you might play differently based on notable factors (hand strength, stack size, position, reads).

Just my $0.02 for the day. Obviously welcome to discussion on this...and other suggestions people have for other ways in which we, as a community, can make this place a more valuable learning tool for all of us.




[/ QUOTE ]
[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

As primarily a lurker and limited poster for the last couple of years, I'd like to echo Fikdsal's assessment of OP.

Great post bro.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two words

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny but just wrong.....LOL

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Two words

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny but just wrong.....LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have expected this from me, its what I am best at.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Seke,

While your intentions are definitely noble and honorable, I honestly beleive that you get out of these forums what you put into them. There's a reason that some posters rise to the top as a result of reading/posting here while others struggle to make their 50th post after lurking here for 2 or more years having never made a final table in a tournament and having to continuously deposit money into their poker accounts.

If more posters really put effort into learning how to play the game as opposed to looking for spoonfed answers on what to do in each situation it would benefit everyone.

Not to toot my own horn... much... but I started playing poker right around the time I registered for these forums. I've not deposited into my accounts in nearly 2 years now and have been a successful MTT and cash game player on a consistent basis. This is directly a result of becoming involved in these forums, speaking with people both on and off the forums and honestly dedicating myself to acquiring as much understanding of poker as I could.

I'm not special. I'm not superhuman or some intellectual giant. I'm an average guy who put in the effort to improve.

Anyone can do the same but don't fool yourself. It takes work! Not everyone puts forth that same amount of effort... and it shows in their results.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Two words

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny but just wrong.....LOL

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have expected this from me, its what I am best at.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

imho there's nothing more satisfying then just posting "standard". Even if you don't mean it. The word itself wasn't even fun for me before 2+2. Now it's...well....standard [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

CybrPunk,
I hear you. I do. But in the same vein that we give people advice on how to play poker hands, my post is at a meta-posting level. So, yeah, I'm giving advice on HOW to post about poker hands to help people who might be struggling to understand why they aren't getting value out of the forum.

(God I'm a nerd)

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
(God I'm a nerd)

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(God we are all nerds)

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

I agree Seke and I have called people out on a few occasions when they say "Fold," so I say, "that doesn't contribute to the discussion, explain why." Then they come back with why, and it is very informative. I know, for me, I post alot of easy hands. The hands I normally post are the hands that I usually get busted on because I want to see if I made the right play and lost, or made a mistake.

I think one of the problems is that people get tired of saying the same thing over and over again. While they understand the inner details, going through it all over and over again is just tedious, however, it helps people who never do that kind of stuff.

I just recently started using Pokerstove alot more and when I respond to hands, I like to come up with hand ranges. When I first started playing poker I was always like, "How the hell do you put people on hand ranges?!?!?" I never realized how much it really meant to the game. I have slowly evolved into a breakeven player, but I still lack mid->late game moves and aggression. I read Theory of Poker and that really helped my game a ton. While some people say HoH helped them, I would have to say that ToP has helped my game the most.

I know that when I read a hand and don't know what to do, I just pass it up and wait for someone else to respond. I guess I should start trying to take ahold of those situations because those are probably the ones I need to breakthrough in my game to become a better player.

Just recently I played in a tourney of 2869 players and came in 60th. I was pretty proud of that. I had a few big hands like AA vs 2 all-ins that really helped me climb the bored, but I lack the late game aggression. I know a big area I need to work on is restealing.

So all of this rambling, I really haven't said much. I guess I didn't say what it was that I was trying to say.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think one of the problems is that people get tired of saying the same thing over and over again. While they understand the inner details, going through it all over and over again is just tedious, however, it helps people who never do that kind of stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, this is exactly why we no longer see players like MLG, Ansky, Adanthar, Rizen and the likes posting regularly in the strategy forums.

Not to call him out specifically, but I was surprised to discover that Rizen hasn't posted a strategy post on the forums in over a year now! I don't take that to mean that he no longer cares about these forums, but rather that he's already contributed his entire poker knowledge fifty times over in the many posts he's made in the past. There is very little in the way of new and revolutionary thinking here and I'm sure it detracts from his hourly rate to spend a large amount of time reviewing many of todays posts.

There's a natural progression that occurs in these forums. It happened in generations past when FossilMan and Ray Zee used to post here regularly... as did various other pros that have since moved on to bigger and brighter careers.

As is the case with natural progression new people need to come forward and carry the torch. There are quite a few talented players here today that make attempts to do just that but the onus can't be completely on these select few people to generate interesting discussion. That's why it's important for the unknown posters to step forward and start posting more. By that I don't mean just create more new topics. Respond to other posts. Take a risk at being called out. Even if you are wrong, the discussion generated can often be more educational than just sitting back waiting to be spoon-fed a two-word answer by one the forum superstars.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

By in large the biggest obstacle to newer poster/players, is simply not knowing how to think about the game. They don't have a clue how to analyze hands from a pure EV perspective, they are too stuck in their own assumptions and habits, they are too results oriented, and most of all they are just plain close minded.

There are many ways to get good at poker. Some people need strict guidence (note: this does not mean they should just be told what to do w/o explanation--- it just means they need to be told what to think), some are extremely perceptive and just "get it" really quickly.

A good example of someone who just got it very quickly, is Timex. I remember last summer I STAKED HIM, in the 1k on stars, and maybe even a few other tournaments. Within a few months his roll like quintupled and he was crushing tournaments across the internet. He surrounded himself with good players and took a very aggressive approach to learning the game, and it paid off.

For me, it probably took me close to 2 years before I made a very aggressive effort to get better. I was basically an up and coming poster, I posted decent stuff and put in a lot of effort. Eventually better players noticed and I was able to talk to them to get in their heads. For example, I was mildly intimidated by guys like Strassa and MLG, and it took me a while before I PMed them for their AIM sn's. It was however, talking to these 2 that brought my game up from mediocre mid stakes drone, to whatever I am now. I would not be where I am today if I didn't pick the brains of players who were better than me.

There are certain posters here who are decent, and prob know their pushbotting charts but in all honesty dont have a [censored] clue when it comes to NL theory or anything beyond basic tournament hands. They post like 40 times a week and most of their posts are fine, but they are stuck in huge leaky habits that they don't seem to care to fix. This is the result of asking what to do, and not why. There are hardly any 2 situations that are the same in poker, so if you are just making threads asking what to do and not really noticing why you should do different things, you're gonna get better, but your skill will certainly plateau.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

I'm pretty sure I learned to get good by reading a bunch of very short posts in MTTF. You can learn a ton if you just go through MTTF and read every time a good poster writes one a one sentence response like "You're never ahead here" or "I always bluff here" or "Raising here doesn't accomplish anything."

There are two obstacles to this actually working:

1) It's hard to know who the good posters are. I'm not going to list good/bad posters because a lot've people'd get pissed off. One way that you can figure out who's good is by looking to see who almost always agrees with the posters who everybody knows are like never wrong--Ansky, MLG and Strassa are probably the best.

2) It's hard to extract the information out of these posts. You just have to work backwards and think why you're never ahead in a certain spot or why a raise makes no sense, etc. For me at least, thinking like this made thinking the other way ("I wonder if I'm ever ahead in this spot?") a lot easier.

Like ansky said, learning to be great (not that I'm there yet) requires a lot of talk about individual hands that you don't really find on 2p2. But most people who are complaining about this forum can learn a ton just by doing what I said.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Since I lurk most of the time I know that you can get better just by reading. However, the times I have come out of my shell and posted a hand or got involved in discussion have been more valuable. For me it seems that the lessons learned by participating, even if it is one emphasizing some simple preflop play, just sink in better. Sometimes the harsh nature of the posters do chase people away, but instead of being coddled, having that sarcastic one liner sink in may save a newer player some time in the long run. Of course, if they really don't understand, there probably will be someone to explain it for them.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Very good thread!
I just started posting at these forums and if there's one thing I like, then it are good long and usefull answers!

If I get some more expierience and start posting replies, then I'll remind myself of this thread [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

Two other obvious problems with the forum.

-Its a popularity contest to get your threads read by the best, smartest and most "known" players. This is to the detreiment of new posters who are unknown and still trying to learn the basics.

- The brain drain of the most talented MTTers who migrate to cash games and take their enormous knowledge of the game with them...again to the detriment of the newbies, and everone else in the forum for that matter.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
You will retain more by being involved/arguing than simply lurking.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Shrug off the insults and keep asking the better players to explain "I fold".

[/ QUOTE ]

Mutually exclusive.

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

seke, I plan on putting in a lot more time actually thinking about poker now that I have little else to do (yay graduating!) I've really noticed a drop off in my play recently and hopefully thinking about poker again and maybe posting a little more will get me out of that. So basically, I'm going to try to do what you're recommending.

Steve

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think one of the problems is that people get tired of saying the same thing over and over again. While they understand the inner details, going through it all over and over again is just tedious, however, it helps people who never do that kind of stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, this is exactly why we no longer see players like MLG, Ansky, Adanthar, Rizen and the likes posting regularly in the strategy forums.

Not to call him out specifically, but I was surprised to discover that Rizen hasn't posted a strategy post on the forums in over a year now! I don't take that to mean that he no longer cares about these forums, but rather that he's already contributed his entire poker knowledge fifty times over in the many posts he's made in the past. There is very little in the way of new and revolutionary thinking here and I'm sure it detracts from his hourly rate to spend a large amount of time reviewing many of todays posts.

There's a natural progression that occurs in these forums. It happened in generations past when FossilMan and Ray Zee used to post here regularly... as did various other pros that have since moved on to bigger and brighter careers.

As is the case with natural progression new people need to come forward and carry the torch. There are quite a few talented players here today that make attempts to do just that but the onus can't be completely on these select few people to generate interesting discussion. That's why it's important for the unknown posters to step forward and start posting more. By that I don't mean just create more new topics. Respond to other posts. Take a risk at being called out. Even if you are wrong, the discussion generated can often be more educational than just sitting back waiting to be spoon-fed a two-word answer by one the forum superstars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or it could have something to do with the fact that I have two kids now and very little time to do more than lurk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I still visit, but forum reading/posting in general has been cut way down due to real life obligations, not for any of the reasons mentioned in this post.

-Rizen

Re: Creating Value in the Forum
 

I don't think it's unnatural for guys with a lot of success to progress beyond the forums anyway. How many have done so? Can't remember too many myself since I started posting a year ago, I bet some of the veterans will remember tons of them.

Life reasons on top of that will certainly make it even more probable that people fade away from posting.