Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

I just got back from 2 weeks in Vegas, and the games there played differently from how I expected. There's no question that they're extremely good, but I feel that to beat them for the max, one would have to be willing to make some VERY big bluffs. I didn't 2nd-barrel very often, which is normal for me, but I think I should've. Furthermore, I think I lost some pretty big pots because I didn't fire a THIRD barrel; people seemed to often call me with pretty weak pairs on the flop, and occasionally on the turn, but I just don't think they have the guts to call a pot bet on the river with that hand, most of the time. I didn't fire many 3rd barrels that I can remember (I very rarely do), as I said, and the times I did, I pretty much always had it, and didn't get paid off. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, though; I'm not sure.

I saw a fair number of players who seemed to have the 2p2 pedigree, and basically all of them seemed content to play slightly LAG, and not get way out of line. For example, they opened a lot, and would make some of the obvious "big-draw overbet pushes," but there was very little restealing going on pre-flop, and virtually no attempts to move an opponent off of anything more than top pair. I didn't play any 25-50, so I'm talking about 10-20 and 5-10 here, both of which tended to play quite deep (300-500BBs commonly). This style obviously does well, but I'm talking about winning the max for the game.

For example: Here's a pot that developed between a weak but not terrible player, and a pretty good player, that I witnessed, which got me thinking about this. The weak player (Villain) was typical for 5/10: he was very straightforward. Every time he'd made the stone-cold nuts, he'd pretty quickly shoved all of his chips in, a couple of times for 2x overbets. He was tightish, but called too much off with top or 2nd pair on the flop, and with dominated hands pre-flop. However, he was VERY timid when facing big bets, often seeming to irrationally fear the nuts.

OK, so he has just won a monster pot, where he'd opened with JTs, and a huge fish had slowplayed AA that made top set in a big multiway pot, until Villain made the nut straight, and they got 1800 in 3 ways with another player's flush draw on the turn. Villain had scooped this monster, and was about to quit; he had mentioned that he was flying home to St. Louis in the morning. As he finished out the round, though, he picked up several more good hands, and won 2 more decent pots.

Then, on ostensibly his last hand of his trip, he raised to 30 UTG--a standard raise for him. A good player (Hero in this story) who roughly covered his 6K in chips called in EP, and maybe one other player called. The flop was Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and Villain led out for 80, looking strong IMO. Hero raised to 200. Folded back to Villain, who jacks it 400 more (600 total). At this point, I'd put him squarely on a set, QJs, or AA/KK; no way he reraises the flop with AQ, and I kind of doubt he'd do it with KK. Hero then surprised me by calling, after thinking for a while. I put him on a pretty big hand, too, or of course, a draw.

The turn is the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and now Villain swells up in his chair a little bit, looking even stronger, and bets out 800 into a pot of about 1300. I put him pretty much on AAA. Hero thinks a while again, and calls. I think he has a very good hand like a set, or QJ/AQ, which makes it harder for him to put Villain on a set, and is having trouble folding it. Just to be clear, I made numerous bad calls on this trip, but QJ would go into the muck in a heartbeat if I was in Hero's spot.

The river is a small [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and now Villain hesitates slightly before betting 400 into the 2900 pot. This is an obvious blocking bet IMO, which I'm pretty much positive he wouldn't make without a set (he'd just c/c AQ). Hero now goes into the tank FOREVER (I eventually called the clock on him, and he called me an "Osshole" in his British accent [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

So, like I said: Hero has a big hand that appears to be no good--a set, or maybe two pair. A straight or a flush is out of the question for his uber-straightforward opponent, but very realistic for him, from his opponent's point of view.

Would you ever bluff here, knowing that your fairly bad opponent likely has top set? You have about 4K to raise him. FWIW, I'm sure this guy was not considering bluffing; he eventually folded his hand. I saw a J in it, and he swore he didn't have a set, so QJ is all that makes any sense to me. What about with a set? Still bluff, or just make the obvious call, getting 8:1?

I would've bluffed all of my chips here for sure on the river, if I'd somehow gotten to that point, even with a set of Jacks. But, that's not necessarily a good thing; it's probably very wrong. Anyway, I know many of you have played in these games lately, and I'm curious if you ever try/see things like this.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just got back from 2 weeks in Vegas, and the games there played differently from how I expected. There's no question that they're extremely good, but I feel that to beat them for the max, one would have to be willing to make some VERY big bluffs. I didn't 2nd-barrel very often, which is normal for me, but I think I should've. Furthermore, I think I lost some pretty big pots because I didn't fire a THIRD barrel; people seemed to often call me with pretty weak pairs on the flop, and occasionally on the turn, but I just don't think they have the guts to call a pot bet on the river with that hand, most of the time. I didn't fire many 3rd barrels that I can remember (I very rarely do), as I said, and the times I did, I pretty much always had it, and didn't get paid off. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, though; I'm not sure.

I saw a fair number of players who seemed to have the 2p2 pedigree, and basically all of them seemed content to play slightly LAG, and not get way out of line. For example, they opened a lot, and would make some of the obvious "big-draw overbet pushes," but there was very little restealing going on pre-flop, and virtually no attempts to move an opponent off of anything more than top pair. I didn't play any 25-50, so I'm talking about 10-20 and 5-10 here, both of which tended to play quite deep (300-500BBs commonly). This style obviously does well, but I'm talking about winning the max for the game.

For example: Here's a pot that developed between a weak but not terrible player, and a pretty good player, that I witnessed, which got me thinking about this. The weak player (Villain) was typical for 5/10: he was very straightforward. Every time he'd made the stone-cold nuts, he'd pretty quickly shoved all of his chips in, a couple of times for 2x overbets. He was tightish, but called too much off with top or 2nd pair on the flop, and with dominated hands pre-flop. However, he was VERY timid when facing big bets, often seeming to irrationally fear the nuts.

OK, so he has just won a monster pot, where he'd opened with JTs, and a huge fish had slowplayed AA that made top set in a big multiway pot, until Villain made the nut straight, and they got 1800 in 3 ways with another player's flush draw on the turn. Villain had scooped this monster, and was about to quit; he had mentioned that he was flying home to St. Louis in the morning. As he finished out the round, though, he picked up several more good hands, and won 2 more decent pots.

Then, on ostensibly his last hand of his trip, he raised to 30 UTG--a standard raise for him. A good player (Hero in this story) who roughly covered his 6K in chips called in EP, and maybe one other player called. The flop was Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and Villain led out for 80, looking strong IMO. Hero raised to 200. Folded back to Villain, who jacks it 400 more (600 total). At this point, I'd put him squarely on a set, QJs, or AA/KK; no way he reraises the flop with AQ, and I kind of doubt he'd do it with KK. Hero then surprised me by calling, after thinking for a while. I put him on a pretty big hand, too, or of course, a draw.

The turn is the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and now Villain swells up in his chair a little bit, looking even stronger, and bets out 800 into a pot of about 1300. I put him pretty much on AAA. Hero thinks a while again, and calls. I think he has a very good hand like a set, or QJ/AQ, which makes it harder for him to put Villain on a set, and is having trouble folding it. Just to be clear, I made numerous bad calls on this trip, but QJ would go into the muck in a heartbeat if I was in Hero's spot.

The river is a small [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and now Villain hesitates slightly before betting 400 into the 2900 pot. This is an obvious blocking bet IMO, which I'm pretty much positive he wouldn't make without a set (he'd just c/c AQ). Hero now goes into the tank FOREVER (I eventually called the clock on him, and he called me an "Osshole" in his British accent [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

So, like I said: Hero has a big hand that appears to be no good--a set, or maybe two pair. A straight or a flush is out of the question for his uber-straightforward opponent, but very realistic for him, from his opponent's point of view.

Would you ever bluff here, knowing that your fairly bad opponent likely has top set? You have about 4K to raise him. FWIW, I'm sure this guy was not considering bluffing; he eventually folded his hand. I saw a J in it, and he swore he didn't have a set, so QJ is all that makes any sense to me. What about with a set? Still bluff, or just make the obvious call, getting 8:1?

I would've bluffed all of my chips here for sure on the river, if I'd somehow gotten to that point, even with a set of Jacks. But, that's not necessarily a good thing; it's probably very wrong. Anyway, I know many of you have played in these games lately, and I'm curious if you ever try/see things like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
WOW..........You were away for two weeks,now I think its time to take a vacation FROM your vacation!

Did the whole post boil down to:
"Would you ever bluff here, knowing that your fairly bad opponent likely has top set?"

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did the whole post boil down to:
"Would you ever bluff here, knowing that your fairly bad opponent likely has top set?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but my post was directed at people who have, or can buy, a clue.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Its 5:30 a.m Friday Morning

As I repied in your other post,I think you need some sleep my friend!

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

God I hate people who QUOTE THE ENTIRE POST IN THEIR REPLY FOR NO REASON, other than because they pressed the quote button instead of reply button.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Whether or not such a bluff is plausible, the weak player might take into consideration that he will be leaving the next morning and be more willing to "book a win" by folding to a shove.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Seems like a close decision. I would usually shove I think.

Some things you have going for you are the fact that live players always think people hit their flush, he just booked a big win and is about to leave and therefore will be more content to give up a pot, and he sounds like the right kind of oppenent to make this move against.

There's a perfect level of experience/ability that you want your opponent to have here. You want him to be better than "OMG I have top set!!!!!!!!!! CALL!!!!!!" and good enough to bother putting people on hands, but still not advanced enough to understand bluffing with strong made hands like bottom set or two pair here.

A couple things going against you are that he likely has a set, maybe top set, and that if he does have top set, he likely has the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] which could help him talk himself into a call, thinking (stupidly) that the opponent wouldn't shove for value without the nuts.

I think this should work more than enough of the time, and be good for image if it doesn't. A lot depends on stuff that you're better at than me, Cero. Is he in the mood to book a decent win and go home? Does he seem like he could just go "Well I think you got it, but I just got these chips... might as well gamble with them," or something like that?

Also, does this Stephen guy hate you too? Does he hate everyone?

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

I don't hate ANYONE Jman28,I was just reading through TWO posts of cero z's,that were longer than "War and Peace",and was just trying to figure out his question ?

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

doesnt seem very close at all. put it in.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

from my experience playing live 5-10nl, if you want to bluff, use the flush cards. from my other experiences at live 5-10nl don't try to bluff someone off a set of aces when you know they have it.

in this situation, i don't think it is obvious that villain has a set of aces. i think it is much more likely that hero has 2 pair or a smaller set. i don't mind a big raise here at all. it's a winning play against the player and the situation that is described here.

(you really set this up for a push to be right though. weak player, about to leave, always thinks his opponent has the nuts) obviously if all that is true we have to push here.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just got back from 2 weeks in Vegas, and the games there played differently from how I expected. There's no question that they're extremely good, but I feel that to beat them for the max, one would have to be willing to make some VERY big bluffs. I didn't 2nd-barrel very often, which is normal for me, but I think I should've. Furthermore, I think I lost some pretty big pots because I didn't fire a THIRD barrel; people seemed to often call me with pretty weak pairs on the flop, and occasionally on the turn, but I just don't think they have the guts to call a pot bet on the river with that hand, most of the time. I didn't fire many 3rd barrels that I can remember (I very rarely do), as I said, and the times I did, I pretty much always had it, and didn't get paid off. Maybe this is just wishful thinking, though; I'm not sure.

I saw a fair number of players who seemed to have the 2p2 pedigree, and basically all of them seemed content to play slightly LAG, and not get way out of line. For example, they opened a lot, and would make some of the obvious "big-draw overbet pushes," but there was very little restealing going on pre-flop, and virtually no attempts to move an opponent off of anything more than top pair. I didn't play any 25-50, so I'm talking about 10-20 and 5-10 here, both of which tended to play quite deep (300-500BBs commonly). This style obviously does well, but I'm talking about winning the max for the game.

For example: Here's a pot that developed between a weak but not terrible player, and a pretty good player, that I witnessed, which got me thinking about this. The weak player (Villain) was typical for 5/10: he was very straightforward. Every time he'd made the stone-cold nuts, he'd pretty quickly shoved all of his chips in, a couple of times for 2x overbets. He was tightish, but called too much off with top or 2nd pair on the flop, and with dominated hands pre-flop. However, he was VERY timid when facing big bets, often seeming to irrationally fear the nuts.

OK, so he has just won a monster pot, where he'd opened with JTs, and a huge fish had slowplayed AA that made top set in a big multiway pot, until Villain made the nut straight, and they got 1800 in 3 ways with another player's flush draw on the turn. Villain had scooped this monster, and was about to quit; he had mentioned that he was flying home to St. Louis in the morning. As he finished out the round, though, he picked up several more good hands, and won 2 more decent pots.

Then, on ostensibly his last hand of his trip, he raised to 30 UTG--a standard raise for him. A good player (Hero in this story) who roughly covered his 6K in chips called in EP, and maybe one other player called. The flop was Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], and Villain led out for 80, looking strong IMO. Hero raised to 200. Folded back to Villain, who jacks it 400 more (600 total). At this point, I'd put him squarely on a set, QJs, or AA/KK; no way he reraises the flop with AQ, and I kind of doubt he'd do it with KK. Hero then surprised me by calling, after thinking for a while. I put him on a pretty big hand, too, or of course, a draw.

The turn is the A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], and now Villain swells up in his chair a little bit, looking even stronger, and bets out 800 into a pot of about 1300. I put him pretty much on AAA. Hero thinks a while again, and calls. I think he has a very good hand like a set, or QJ/AQ, which makes it harder for him to put Villain on a set, and is having trouble folding it. Just to be clear, I made numerous bad calls on this trip, but QJ would go into the muck in a heartbeat if I was in Hero's spot.

The river is a small [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and now Villain hesitates slightly before betting 400 into the 2900 pot. This is an obvious blocking bet IMO, which I'm pretty much positive he wouldn't make without a set (he'd just c/c AQ). Hero now goes into the tank FOREVER (I eventually called the clock on him, and he called me an "Osshole" in his British accent [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

So, like I said: Hero has a big hand that appears to be no good--a set, or maybe two pair. A straight or a flush is out of the question for his uber-straightforward opponent, but very realistic for him, from his opponent's point of view.

Would you ever bluff here, knowing that your fairly bad opponent likely has top set? You have about 4K to raise him. FWIW, I'm sure this guy was not considering bluffing; he eventually folded his hand. I saw a J in it, and he swore he didn't have a set, so QJ is all that makes any sense to me. What about with a set? Still bluff, or just make the obvious call, getting 8:1?

I would've bluffed all of my chips here for sure on the river, if I'd somehow gotten to that point, even with a set of Jacks. But, that's not necessarily a good thing; it's probably very wrong. Anyway, I know many of you have played in these games lately, and I'm curious if you ever try/see things like this.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
doesnt seem very close at all. put it in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
God I hate people who QUOTE THE ENTIRE POST IN THEIR REPLY FOR NO REASON, other than because they pressed the quote button instead of reply button.

[/ QUOTE ]

QFMFT

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
from my experience playing live 5-10nl, if you want to bluff, use the flush cards. from my other experiences at live 5-10nl don't try to bluff someone off a set of aces when you know they have it.

in this situation, i don't think it is obvious that villain has a set of aces. i think it is much more likely that hero has 2 pair or a smaller set. i don't mind a big raise here at all. it's a winning play against the player and the situation that is described here.

(you really set this up for a push to be right though. weak player, about to leave, always thinks his opponent has the nuts) obviously if all that is true we have to push here.

[/ QUOTE ]

It IS obvious that the weak player in the hand has a set. The only other possibility is As and Qs, and that is a distant possibility, because of the flop play.

I "set it up to be a push" because this was a spot where all of the factors needed for the guy to fold a good hand seemed to be present, and yet, it still seems very dangerous to try to bluff a bad player off of top set. I know that the general plan when for a tough internet player coming into these passive games is to run it over; I'm asking if you'll take it this far. Luego says it's not close; that's what I'm asking. Do others agree or disagree?

These situations are worth so many BBs if you play them correctly that IMO they're worth talking about. How far do you take it? Let's say that you KNOW he has AAA, QQQ, or JJJ when he bets the turn. Would you call that bet on the turn with air, knowing that there are 13 cards that put a 3-flush or a 4-straight on the board (without pairing the board)?

Also, FWIW, I wouldn't try to rep the straight on the turn, because a bad player needs to muster so much psychological strength to fold a set in the first place, I think adding the fact that he'd have 10 outs if he was behind would make folding impossible for him.

Thanks for all the comments so far, and feel free to add whatever.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

cero, definitely shove. he's leaving, you think he wants to explain to his friends/girlfriend/whoever that he was up huge and then lost it all on the last hand? or want to deal with it himself? he'll see the board, look down at his stack and still see enough money behind where he can walk away a "winner", and fold (and i don't think he'll be that reluctant, either).

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

nuts: The title says "long rambling post." If you don't like it, don't click.

Cero: Do you think shoving is better than raising 3,000?

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
nuts: The title says "long rambling post." If you don't like it, don't click.

Cero: Do you think shoving is better than raising 3,000?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a tough balance between 3000 being "as scary" as 4000 in general, and mimicking exactly how he (Villain) would play the nuts. If I bluffed, I'd shove all my chips in within 5 seconds of his blocking bet, just like he would do if he hit the nuts.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

"Should I bluff the player that folds to bluffs?"

yes...

If he doesn't fold then youpegged him wrong in the post and in real life. If he did, good job nh

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

tl; dr

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Hi Cero,

Does the fact that villain probably holds the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] make a shove look better or worse? I would think worse because he would know hero cannot have the nuts, so a big shove that could be the nuts or nothing is looking a lot like nothing.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
tl; dr

[/ QUOTE ]

Ban.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
cero, definitely shove. he's leaving, you think he wants to explain to his friends/girlfriend/whoever that he was up huge and then lost it all on the last hand? or want to deal with it himself? he'll see the board, look down at his stack and still see enough money behind where he can walk away a "winner", and fold (and i don't think he'll be that reluctant, either).

[/ QUOTE ]
i think this is very optimistic. i played a hand with a very similar context a few months ago: it was a 2-5 1k max-buy game at the venetian, a kid had his 2k in chips all racked up and was even standing up already. i told him to straddle so he could be sure to play his last hand, but he wouldn't, and said, "i'm only playing AA." he got dealt his hand, bent down to look at it, raised to 40 bucks and sat back down. "so you really got aces!", several ppl at the table chimed in.

i had 76s and called, and told him flat-out, "i've got a nutcracker, i'm gonna snap you off." another player also called, and the flop came something like 7 3 2.

utg kid overbet the pot, like $150, and again i told him, "i'm gonna make a loose call here just so i can bust you."

turn was another 7. kid checked, i bet $500, he thought for a while and called. river's like a 9 or something, he checked again, i shoved for like $1300, whatever he had left (i had him covered), and after tanking again he put his chips in with, indeed, AA.

moral of the story: ppl don't like to fold aces. also, ppl don't like to fold sets. also, ppl don't like to fold sets of aces.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
nuts: The title says "long rambling post." If you don't like it, don't click.

Cero: Do you think shoving is better than raising 3,000?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry Matt!

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

different hand. i agree with you about the 'moral', but in your hand you were goading him the whole time, his line was a bluff inducing line, and the board was not scary. in OP's hand, there is no trash talking going on, his line is designed to AVOID bluffs not to induce them, and the flush just hit on the river. totally different. I would never bluff in your hand, but I'd definitely do it in the OP's.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

another hand that relates to this 3-barreling business. this one was from the bellagio 10-20 two nights ago. keep in mind that i'd been playing tight solid poker all night, not once getting out of line. anyhow, there was an open-raise to $100 from early position, next guy called, button called, and i made it $500 to go from the bb (i started the hand with $5100.) original raiser folded, next guy called, button folded.

hu to the flop: 9 7 5 rainbow. i bet $700, he called.

turn Q. i bet $1500, he called.

river 2. i shoved my last $2400. he called with JJ. i happened to have 72o and sucked out hardcore (true story), but what legitimate hand could he beat there on the river? nothing but a bluff, but he called anyway. my point being, ppl are willing to look up even that 3rd barrel much lighter and more often than you all seem to think.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Is it entirely impossible that villain has the nut flush? I think A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] looks pretty consistent with his line as well..

But assuming you're right and that he would overbet the river with the nuts, I would think this is almost entirely image-dependent... it not only matters whether villain is capable of laying down the hand, but also whether he is capable of laying it down against you. If you've been playing laggy and betting alot, fish always suspect you're "up to something" and talk themselves into calls which is why I (for the most part) stick with your philosophy of not firing a whole lot of 2nd/3rd barrels playing live.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Lefort, the guy woulda open shoved with the nuts

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

"Better Than U", you're such a [censored] moron.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Cero,
It was good seeing you out in vegas. In this particular hand i do think that a river push would work enough to make it +EV as you descibed the villian. Another thing to consider here is that the 5-10 game is capped buy of 1k so if you do make this play and get called you will lose a lot of potential value in later hands. So if there is another big stacked donk at the table or people that you can push around with 4K that you wouldnt be able to with 1k it becomes a more difficult calculation. I think a shove would def be more fun since you can show the guy the bluff on his way out the door and he can think about that the hole way back to STL.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

if he had a set of aces, there would be no way he would fold this, even for the over push, every live player has heard this before "I guess I'll pay you off" and get your push snapped off

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Live players fear flushes more than anything. I also think the older someone is the more likely they fear flushes. Just from personal experience I dont if everyone has gotten that impression.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Good story Mikey, but there's a big difference between board and action in OP's post and yours.

I'm super up in the air about this one.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

I wouldn't.. maybe it's because of the limits I play, but people ALWAYS convince themselves you're only shoving the scary card because they bet so f'ing little. I can definitely see this guy saying, "Well, I came here to gamble, I call, let's see your flush.."

Ah, and then obviously saying, "I knew he didn't have it" after he rakes the pot.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

i think this is a rare spot where you can get away pulling this type of move.. although making it ~3k is kinda pointless.. shoving is the best play here. KhTh, 9hTh are both hands in which you'd probably take the same line if you were pretty deep.. and you are.

not to mention what krantz said earlier.. your bet demands respect from somebody who apparently is leaving and leaving a winner.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i happened to have 72o and sucked out hardcore (true story), but what legitimate hand could he beat there on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

mike - it's disgusting that you would try to use cero's fine thread as yet another device in your neverending crusade to prove that you are not a nit.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

Here's what I don't get. If we're so quick to shove here because we feel he won't look us up without the nuts, that means that we wouldn't play hearts this way, because we wouldn't be able to get paid. I think that limits our range to strong hands, and I don't think it's too much of a jump for villain to figure that out. Granted, a lot of people (like hero in the actual hand) won't raise the river with a hand like QJ or JJ which I guess makes shove good, but I don't think shove is far and away the best play here.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

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Hi Cero,

Does the fact that villain probably holds the A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] make a shove look better or worse? I would think worse because he would know hero cannot have the nuts, so a big shove that could be the nuts or nothing is looking a lot like nothing.

-DeathDonkey

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honestly i doubt a player this bad even realizes thats relevant. His thought process is probably "I have a set of aces. The flush hit, [censored]."

If he does realize it though and apply logic to it, i could see him being bad enough to call based heavily on the fact he has the Ah.

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

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another hand that relates to this 3-barreling business. this one was from the bellagio 10-20 two nights ago. keep in mind that i'd been playing tight solid poker all night, not once getting out of line. anyhow, there was an open-raise to $100 from early position, next guy called, button called, and i made it $500 to go from the bb (i started the hand with $5100.) original raiser folded, next guy called, button folded.

hu to the flop: 9 7 5 rainbow. i bet $700, he called.

turn Q. i bet $1500, he called.

river 2. i shoved my last $2400. he called with JJ. i happened to have 72o and sucked out hardcore (true story), but what legitimate hand could he beat there on the river? nothing but a bluff, but he called anyway. my point being, ppl are willing to look up even that 3rd barrel much lighter and more often than you all seem to think.

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lol mike, 72o? niiiice =)

he put you on AK btw

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

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mike ... you are not a nit.

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thank you la, you're the only one who truly knows me!

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

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cero, definitely shove. he's leaving, you think he wants to explain to his friends/girlfriend/whoever that he was up huge and then lost it all on the last hand? or want to deal with it himself? he'll see the board, look down at his stack and still see enough money behind where he can walk away a "winner", and fold (and i don't think he'll be that reluctant, either).

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i think this is very optimistic. i played a hand with a very similar context a few months ago: it was a 2-5 1k max-buy game at the venetian, a kid had his 2k in chips all racked up and was even standing up already. i told him to straddle so he could be sure to play his last hand, but he wouldn't, and said, "i'm only playing AA." he got dealt his hand, bent down to look at it, raised to 40 bucks and sat back down. "so you really got aces!", several ppl at the table chimed in.

i had 76s and called, and told him flat-out, "i've got a nutcracker, i'm gonna snap you off." another player also called, and the flop came something like 7 3 2.

utg kid overbet the pot, like $150, and again i told him, "i'm gonna make a loose call here just so i can bust you."

turn was another 7. kid checked, i bet $500, he thought for a while and called. river's like a 9 or something, he checked again, i shoved for like $1300, whatever he had left (i had him covered), and after tanking again he put his chips in with, indeed, AA.

moral of the story: ppl don't like to fold aces. also, ppl don't like to fold sets. also, ppl don't like to fold sets of aces.

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Uhm, a shove after a check is much different than a shove after a bet no? Your scenario is completely different.,

Re: Would You Try It? Live Shenanigans (long rambling post)
 

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different hand. i agree with you about the 'moral', but in your hand you were goading him the whole time, his line was a bluff inducing line, and the board was not scary. in OP's hand, there is no trash talking going on, his line is designed to AVOID bluffs not to induce them, and the flush just hit on the river. totally different.

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there's a big difference between board and action in OP's post and yours.

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Uhm, a shove after a check is much different than a shove after a bet no? Your scenario is completely different.,

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some of you are being stupid. i didn't say the hand or action was similar, the similarity i referred to was the scenario of a guy who's about to quit the game and is playing his last hand. krantz thinks in that situation the guy would be more likely to fold a non-nut hand in order to finish "winner"; i told a story where someone put in 400bb's in that spot with AA. even after the top card on the flop paired on the turn (i guess that's not a scary card at all though).

doesn't matter if it's their "last hand." ppl don't fold aces. ppl don't fold sets. reading a guy not only for aces, but for a SET OF ACES, and trying to push him off of it--with, what, about a pot-sized raise left?--is not going to end well very often.