short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO (t9528)
Hero (t7960)
SB (t3240)
BB (t5190)
UTG (t8075)
UTG+1 (t5330)
MP1 (t380)
MP2 (t6730)
MP3 (t1600)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t380</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero ???

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Raise to t1200, fold to a reraise.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Raising to 800 is sufficient. You are going to raise with A/T on the button if its open folded to you anyway, so what's complicated about this hand?

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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Raising to 800 is sufficient. You are going to raise with A/T on the button if its open folded to you anyway, so what's complicated about this hand?

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It is a different situation, as I have a smaller equity, since I cannot steal the blinds. Also, if I flat call, the blinds may fold or flat call. It seems like folding is worth considering here, as well as flat calling.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

I make it 600 here with like any 2

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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I make it 600 here with like any 2

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Huh? The short stack made it 2xBB and you raise to 3xBB to isolate with any 2? Some hands are not ahead out pot odds versus short stack's range. Plus if you reraise you can be pushed off it by another raise or flat called by a better hand.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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Raising to 800 is sufficient. You are going to raise with A/T on the button if its open folded to you anyway, so what's complicated about this hand?

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Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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Raising to 800 is sufficient. You are going to raise with A/T on the button if its open folded to you anyway, so what's complicated about this hand?

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Because picking up the blinds is worth about 400 chips, but isolating is worth about an expectation of a 200 chip gain. I don't understand my you don't see the difference.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

someones math is screwy here

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

raise to isolate. but not to much if the bb or the sb wake up with a monster.
I'd say 1200 is enough

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

I like raising to 1000 better because you are getting priced into the small blind's shove if you make it much more. You can't flat call either, for whoever metioned that

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
I like raising to 1000 better because you are getting priced into the small blind's shove if you make it much more. You can't flat call either, for whoever metioned that

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So if you raise 1000 to isolate and fold to a push, you gain 200 if everyone folds, but lose 1000 if a blind pushes. So the blinds have to fold 80% of the time for this to be profitable compared to folding, ignoring when they flat call.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Raise to 800 to 1000 to isolate. Fold to a reraise by the blinds.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Interesting hand. I find one important peace of information missing however. Have the antes kicked in yet. Is this 100 200 25 or just 100 200 no ante?

A-10 is too good to let go here IMO especially with ante, you are getting odds to call against MP1 range and if vilain wakes up with AK it is not a disaster either. The blinds do not wake up with a big hand often enough to make this a fold.

However, the stack sizes are dangerous for one of the blinds to make a move here and IMO 2 aspects are critical here. First, what is your read of the blinds on their level of awarness about the game? If SB if a very capable/aware player he may recognise the situation and push on your raise because your dead money in the pot makes this move +EV. This aspect needs to be considered carefully. Second ante or no ante? This has a significant impact on the situation also.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

No antes.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

IMO, a min-raise is usually enough to isolate here. But to be on the safe side, I'd make it t600.

Any reasonable person who calls or shoves over the top has to have a real hand at that point to call an A/I and an isolation raise.

Shaundeeb's point about raising with any two is interesting for two reasons: 1) There is a decent chance we win the pot with any two given villain's range. 2) Crazy image factors. Are people going to be shoving all in with moderate holdings with you still to act if they know you might re-raise with junk? Not likely.

Edit: Oh yeah, raising more than t800 is terrible IMO. You are going to have to fold to anyone who shoves behind you (unless you raise a big amount, and then you will have to call but won't like it).

If I am going to raise to isolate but fold to a re-raise, why risk more? It makes no sense.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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No antes.

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And I guess no reads on the 'awareness' of the blinds.

So when it gets to you there is 685 in the pot. I like to raise between 700 and 800 here to denies good odds to the blinds to flat call to see a flop. A raise to 650 give 3:1 pot odds for a flat call from the BB!

Greatly simplyfied, assuming that the reraising range of the blinds are top 10% of hands, then 80% of the times both blind will fold. The raise here with A-10 is clearly +EV (I calculated approximately +250 on average going in against MP1 a 60% favorite and folding to a raise from the blinds).

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Here are the results. I will have to try flat calling with QQ-AA. I was thinking afterwards a fold was better if the blinds are this aggressive.

I don't see the point in the isolation raise everyone is talking about. If you isolate, you are about a flop against the short stack with 300 in dead money, for about an expected gain of 150. I can't see how reraising and folding to a push is cEV+.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

I kinda just raise and make it almost an open. I think 1200 is overkill. I'd make it like 800-900 (as if I was raising over a limper) and yes fold to a shove or something. You might think people who shove over you are just trying to get the best equity they can, but 99% of players aren't good enough to do that. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

I also definitely reraise with my better hands (QQ-AA), etc.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here are the results. I will have to try flat calling with QQ-AA. I was thinking afterwards a fold was better if the blinds are this aggressive.

I don't see the point in the isolation raise everyone is talking about. If you isolate, you are about a flop against the short stack with 300 in dead money, for about an expected gain of 150. I can't see how reraising and folding to a push is cEV+.

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These aren't really results. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Sorry, results.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

CO (t9528)
Hero (t7960)
SB (t3240)
BB (t5190)
UTG (t8075)
UTG+1 (t5330)
MP1 (t380)
MP2 (t6730)
MP3 (t1600)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t380</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls t380, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to t3240</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero folds.

Flop: (t4200) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t4200) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t4200) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t4200

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
SB has 6h 6s (four of a kind, sixes).
MP1 has 7c 9h (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: SB wins t4200. </font>at isol

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Here is my math, which is greatly simplified. It assumes re-raising range of the blinds is top 10% of hands. So out of 10 times you get in this situation 8 times neither blinds will call and the other 2 times one of the blind (it may actually be both of them) will raise. This assumption is wrong because a player who wakes up with AA may decide to simply flat call but you have to deal with it then...

So 80% of the time I raise to 700 both blinds fold. I then assume I have a 60% chance of winning a 1070 pot. 40% of the time I will loose 385.

0.8 * 0.6 * 1070 = 515

0.8 * 0.4 * -385 = -125

When I get reraise I loose 700

0.2 * 1.0 *-700 = -140

Overall when I raise to 700 in this pot I make 250 chips.


What do you think?

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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No antes.

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And I guess no reads on the 'awareness' of the blinds.

So when it gets to you there is 685 in the pot. I like to raise between 700 and 800 here to denies good odds to the blinds to flat call to see a flop. A raise to 650 give 3:1 pot odds for a flat call from the BB!

Greatly simplyfied, assuming that the reraising range of the blinds are top 10% of hands, then 80% of the times both blind will fold. The raise here with A-10 is clearly +EV (I calculated approximately +250 on average going in against MP1 a 60% favorite and folding to a raise from the blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, assume you are a 60% favorite against the short stack, you raise to 750, the blinds reraise 20% of the time to which you fold, and the blinds never flat call.

If you isolate, there is 1060 in the pot. Your average gain is +256. If you are reraised, you lose 750. So your average gain is 256 * .8 - 750 * .2 = + 54 chips.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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No antes.

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And I guess no reads on the 'awareness' of the blinds.

So when it gets to you there is 685 in the pot. I like to raise between 700 and 800 here to denies good odds to the blinds to flat call to see a flop. A raise to 650 give 3:1 pot odds for a flat call from the BB!

Greatly simplyfied, assuming that the reraising range of the blinds are top 10% of hands, then 80% of the times both blind will fold. The raise here with A-10 is clearly +EV (I calculated approximately +250 on average going in against MP1 a 60% favorite and folding to a raise from the blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, assume you are a 60% favorite against the short stack, you raise to 750, the blinds reraise 20% of the time to which you fold, and the blinds never flat call.

If you isolate, there is 1060 in the pot. Your average gain is +256. If you are reraised, you lose 750. So your average gain is 256 * .8 - 750 * .2 = + 54 chips.

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OK I do not think I agree with all of the math here.

0,6 of 1070 is 642

0,4 I loose 385 which means 154

Net here is 488.

0.8 * 488 - 0.2 *700 = 250

How is that?

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

OK found another way to look at it. How about this.

100 hands

80 hands both blind folds

48 (60% of 80 hands) wins of 1060 = 50 880

32 (40% of 80 hands) lost of 385 = -12 320

20 hands lost of 700 = -14 000

So after 100 hands I net 24560. Over 100 hands that means about 250 a hand.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Wow, what do we think about SB's shove with 66 here?

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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No antes.

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And I guess no reads on the 'awareness' of the blinds.

So when it gets to you there is 685 in the pot. I like to raise between 700 and 800 here to denies good odds to the blinds to flat call to see a flop. A raise to 650 give 3:1 pot odds for a flat call from the BB!

Greatly simplyfied, assuming that the reraising range of the blinds are top 10% of hands, then 80% of the times both blind will fold. The raise here with A-10 is clearly +EV (I calculated approximately +250 on average going in against MP1 a 60% favorite and folding to a raise from the blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, assume you are a 60% favorite against the short stack, you raise to 750, the blinds reraise 20% of the time to which you fold, and the blinds never flat call.

If you isolate, there is 1060 in the pot. Your average gain is +256. If you are reraised, you lose 750. So your average gain is 256 * .8 - 750 * .2 = + 54 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I do not think I agree with all of the math here.

0,6 of 1070 is 642

0,4 I loose 385 which means 154

Net here is 488.

0.8 * 488 - 0.2 *700 = 250

How is that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't argue with me about math. My calculations are correct.

If you isolate and win the hand, you win 685 chips. You have to subtract the 385 you invested.

.6* 685 = 411. So net is 411-154 = 257. .8*257 - .2 *700 = +79 chips. I calculated +54 chips, partly because I assumed a raise to 750 rather than 700.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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Wow, what do we think about SB's shove with 66 here?

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I like it given that hero just called. If hero had made an iso-raise and I was sitting in the SB w/66, I'd probably toss it.

However, given Nth level thinking, I suppose the shove is actually worse b/c Hero called and would have been better had Hero made iso-raise. True?

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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No antes.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I guess no reads on the 'awareness' of the blinds.

So when it gets to you there is 685 in the pot. I like to raise between 700 and 800 here to denies good odds to the blinds to flat call to see a flop. A raise to 650 give 3:1 pot odds for a flat call from the BB!

Greatly simplyfied, assuming that the reraising range of the blinds are top 10% of hands, then 80% of the times both blind will fold. The raise here with A-10 is clearly +EV (I calculated approximately +250 on average going in against MP1 a 60% favorite and folding to a raise from the blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, assume you are a 60% favorite against the short stack, you raise to 750, the blinds reraise 20% of the time to which you fold, and the blinds never flat call.

If you isolate, there is 1060 in the pot. Your average gain is +256. If you are reraised, you lose 750. So your average gain is 256 * .8 - 750 * .2 = + 54 chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK I do not think I agree with all of the math here.

0,6 of 1070 is 642

0,4 I loose 385 which means 154

Net here is 488.

0.8 * 488 - 0.2 *700 = 250

How is that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Don't argue with me about math. My calculations are correct.

If you isolate and win the hand, you win 685 chips. You have to subtract the 385 you invested.

.6* 685 = 411. So net is 411-154 = 257. .8*257 - .2 *700 = +79 chips. I calculated +54 chips, partly because I assumed a raise to 750 rather than 700.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betgo,

Do not get mad here. I am not trying to argue with I just want to get this wright regardless of who is right or wrong.

BTW I respect you quite a bit as a poster here and as a player (expect for that one time when you pushed from the button with KJ got called by the SB with KQ and me in the BB with AJ. You took both of us blinds out of the tourney with your str8... lol).

(15 minutes later) Dam you are right. Well thanks. Looking foward to see you at the table.

Cheers

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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I make it 600 here with like any 2

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Huh? The short stack made it 2xBB and you raise to 3xBB to isolate with any 2? Some hands are not ahead out pot odds versus short stack's range. Plus if you reraise you can be pushed off it by another raise or flat called by a better hand.

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When I say like any2 that means any hand I didn't have autofold on OTB which is a lot of hands at this level. You are getting 2 to 1 and SB and BB fold more often then you could think and the small RR from a known player scares the [censored] out of them to flat call a lot of hands they should be shoving. You then have pos a small sidepot and I usually bet 200-400 on the flop when checked to.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

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I make it 600 here with like any 2

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Huh? The short stack made it 2xBB and you raise to 3xBB to isolate with any 2? Some hands are not ahead out pot odds versus short stack's range. Plus if you reraise you can be pushed off it by another raise or flat called by a better hand.

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When I say like any2 that means any hand I didn't have autofold on OTB which is a lot of hands at this level. You are getting 2 to 1 and SB and BB fold more often then you could think and the small RR from a known player scares the [censored] out of them to flat call a lot of hands they should be shoving. You then have pos a small sidepot and I usually bet 200-400 on the flop when checked to.

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I think you are making a mistake playing anything much worse than ATo here. Isolating doesn't gain you that much, and you have to fold to another raise. I think you need a better hand to play here than if it was folded to you OTB.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

[ QUOTE ]
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I make it 600 here with like any 2

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Huh? The short stack made it 2xBB and you raise to 3xBB to isolate with any 2? Some hands are not ahead out pot odds versus short stack's range. Plus if you reraise you can be pushed off it by another raise or flat called by a better hand.

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When I say like any2 that means any hand I didn't have autofold on OTB which is a lot of hands at this level. You are getting 2 to 1 and SB and BB fold more often then you could think and the small RR from a known player scares the [censored] out of them to flat call a lot of hands they should be shoving. You then have pos a small sidepot and I usually bet 200-400 on the flop when checked to.

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I think you are making a mistake playing anything much worse than ATo here. Isolating doesn't gain you that much, and you have to fold to another raise. I think you need a better hand to play here than if it was folded to you OTB.

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thats the great part of MTTs we can disagree and prob both be correct with some points. I iso a lot of people with a lot of hands I love when getting 2 to 1 for a small part of my stack. Esp when people know who I am and that I prob am playing 15+ tables they assume my range is tighter then it is even after it gets to showdown very few adjust.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

Shaun, raising here lighter than you'd raise if it was folded to you is just silly.

Obviously the actual range depends on the table, and often it'll be any two. ATo is an incredibly easy raise, though.

Re: short stack push for 2xBB, ATo on button
 

noah thats why I said anything I didn't have autofold on which means I open raise if folded to me sorry if that wasn't clear