calling all-in with AK (again)
 

this is my second post this week of a very similar problem that happened to me deep in a tournament.

55$ NL tournament , 890 entrants, last 19 players
I am third in chips.
the chip leader acts after me. he used his big stack to push players. he made some moves in the past with nothing.

PokerStars Game #9389453620: Tournament #47144051, $50+$5 Hold'em No Limit - Level XVII (4000/8000)

Seat 1: SB (313306 in chips)
Seat 2: BB (39820 in chips)
Seat 4: UTG (314770 in chips)
Seat 5: UTG+1 (52809 in chips)
Seat 7: CO (22418 in chips)
Seat 9: HERO(171510 in chips)

Dealt to HERO[As Kd]
preflop: 3 fold, hero raises 16000 to 24000, SB raises 288906 to 312906 and is all-in, BB calls 31420 and is all-in
HERO- ?

now at first it looks like a fold after 2 all-ins, but I know the big stack can do this with any 2, and If i win the pot against him it will make me the massive chip leader. (the BB was short stack and had to call almost with any decent hand.)
on the other hand - is it wise to risk the tournament on this hand.
what should be my range to call this?

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

Call really fast

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

honestly, i really like to fold this hand. the bb is not your priority here, as he is accounting for only 31,000 chips. he may have aces, he may have nothing, but your concern is obviously the sidepot. moving forward, even if he can do this with any 2, the fact that you are at best in a domination spot makes this a bad call, in my opinion. you are in a great position to get to the final table and even the final 3 in this tournament. if you think this particular player is very tricky or aggressive, wait till you have a real hand and not just A high. i don't necesarrily think it is a bad call, but i have folded AK before in a huge tournament like this and had the 2nd biggest stack (i was big stack in the final table) show QQ. usually, even though he may have pulled this before, he is not going to pull this move on you with nothing and there is a good chance you are behind to 22 - QQ, splitting the pot, or behind. wait for a better spot. please, please, tell me if i am wrong but this is just what i would do.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

This is a completely different situation than the last, as your seat + stack have nowhere near the equity as you did when you were 2/6 with 4 shorties.

The only reason I might not call is that if BB (or anyone really) gets knocked out, this table will break and you probably won't have big stack on your left (the other right, stupid...) so might be able to chip up with a lot less risk.

Also, who has he been making moves with "nothing" against? Doing it vs. a 80k stack vs. a 180k stack are very different things.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

no this doesn't ever look like a fold.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
honestly, i really like to fold this hand. the bb is not your priority here, as he is accounting for only 31,000 chips. he may have aces, he may have nothing, but your concern is obviously the sidepot. moving forward, even if he can do this with any 2, the fact that you are at best in a domination spot makes this a bad call, in my opinion. you are in a great position to get to the final table and even the final 3 in this tournament. if you think this particular player is very tricky or aggressive, wait till you have a real hand and not just A high. i don't necesarrily think it is a bad call, but i have folded AK before in a huge tournament like this and had the 2nd biggest stack (i was big stack in the final table) show QQ. usually, even though he may have pulled this before, he is not going to pull this move on you with nothing and there is a good chance you are behind to 22 - QQ, splitting the pot, or behind. wait for a better spot. please, please, tell me if i am wrong but this is just what i would do.

[/ QUOTE ]

when I read what you write it make a lot of sense. the main pot is my concern.
but if i have a read on this guy that he is making a move , I will be favorite to win and be the massive chip leader.
this is really a close one because i also don't want to risk my tourney even if I'm against 26 which i am only 66% favorite.
tough tough call

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
honestly, i really like to fold this hand. the bb is not your priority here, as he is accounting for only 31,000 chips. he may have aces, he may have nothing, but your concern is obviously the sidepot. moving forward, even if he can do this with any 2, the fact that you are at best in a domination spot makes this a bad call, in my opinion. you are in a great position to get to the final table and even the final 3 in this tournament. if you think this particular player is very tricky or aggressive, wait till you have a real hand and not just A high. i don't necesarrily think it is a bad call, but i have folded AK before in a huge tournament like this and had the 2nd biggest stack (i was big stack in the final table) show QQ. usually, even though he may have pulled this before, he is not going to pull this move on you with nothing and there is a good chance you are behind to 22 - QQ, splitting the pot, or behind. wait for a better spot. please, please, tell me if i am wrong but this is just what i would do.

[/ QUOTE ]

try sngs not mtts

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]

The only reason I might not call is that if BB (or anyone really) gets knocked out, this table will break and you probably won't have big stack on your left (the other right, stupid...) so might be able to chip up with a lot less risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

very good point

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
no this doesn't ever look like a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]I tend to agree, but the fact that there are exactly 19 people left and I will likely have a much more advantageous seat, risklessly very shortly make me at least think about it.

Of course, if I call and win, I have a HUGELY advantageous seat, but yeah, risk.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no this doesn't ever look like a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]I tend to agree, but the fact that there are exactly 19 people left and I will likely have a much more advantageous seat, risklessly very shortly make me at least think about it.

you are winning this pot/sidepot more then not therefore you will have a BS and can abuse the table, if you are good. play to win seriously.

Of course, if I call and win, I have a HUGELY advantageous seat, but yeah, risk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

Agreed.

I never said I'd fold, that was just the one thing that would pop in my head before I clicked call and minimized the table before the flop was dealt. (I run bad, so I can't look anymore right now)

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

I'm prolly making a cryin call here but I don't know the pay structure. So it's that close...

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

Easy call. Not close.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Easy call. Not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is close

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy call. Not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is close

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it really isn't. It's not even relatively close. This is a very clear call.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy call. Not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is close

[/ QUOTE ]

No, it really isn't. It's not even relatively close. This is a very clear call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crystal clear actually

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

play to win baby.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy call. Not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is close

[/ QUOTE ]
Realize that ICM doesn't come into the question in nearly the same way it did in your previous post. If you're not calling what you yourself say is quite possibly a resteal with AK, what _are_ you going to call with? QQ+ only? That's so exploitable it's not even funny.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

Me personally, if the cameras are off, im folding AK in this spot, but that's just me. You however, should have called and you know why.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Me personally, if the cameras are off, im folding AK in this spot, but that's just me. You however, should have called and you know why.

[/ QUOTE ]
lol?

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy call. Not close.

[/ QUOTE ]

it is close

[/ QUOTE ]
Realize that ICM doesn't come into the question in nearly the same way it did in your previous post. If you're not calling what you yourself say is quite possibly a resteal with AK, what _are_ you going to call with? QQ+ only? That's so exploitable it's not even funny.

[/ QUOTE ]

we all play to win. and I do realize it's not an ICM situation.

Lets look at the reasons for folding:

1. If we fold and the big stack win, the table will break up and i presumably wont have a big stack to my left. this will be a huge advantage for me. (a point mentioned by sethypooh21)
2. at best case I'm 72% favorite , if my read is correct and he is doing it with any 2 (live cards) so I am only 63% favorite, at worse case I'm 45% underdog. (lets assume he is not doing it with KK or AA).
3. Although my main concerns is the big stack , there are 2 all-ins here. this means that I need a much better hand to call this because the short stack might be doing this with an A or a K taking one of my outs.
4. my stack size will be still very good after folding ( 5 in chips out of 18 or 19).

now lets see the advantages of calling :

1. If we win we are becoming the big stack in the tournament.(first out of 19 or 18) with a good chance of winning 1-3.
note that if I take only the side pot ,I will have only a slight edge over the second stack. this doesn't increase my chances of making 1-3 by a lot.

the more I think of it , it looks like a sick fold to me.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

call and be thankful of the opportunity.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

dedor and other morons in this thread you don't realize how big of a +cEV and +$EV spot this is and if you are passing this up then you might as well open fold and save yourself the 3bb. Honestly I am sure after reading your comments you guys are the many 2+2ers who are losing players and feeding mine and other better players bankrolls because you suck at tourneys about as much as it is humanly possibly

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

I think you're in a coinflip about half of the time and your dominatind his hand the other half. I don't think he would ever do this with AA, and I would be surprised if he has KK also. What kind of better spot do you really think you're going to get in this tournament. if a $50 600 man tourney, the last 18 are going to know how to play.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
dedor and other morons in this thread you don't realize how big of a +cEV and +$EV spot this is and if you are passing this up then you might as well open fold and save yourself the 3bb. Honestly I am sure after reading your comments you guys are the many 2+2ers who are losing players and feeding mine and other better players bankrolls because you suck at tourneys about as much as it is humanly possibly

[/ QUOTE ]
Really, some of the posts here are sickeningly bad, I won't argue the point anymore.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

dont fold

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

It's unbelievable that people playing 55 freezeouts are so clueless.
Folding in this spot is just simply awful. It's the clearest call ever.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

Depending on the read u have on villian, you say that he is tricky and can make this play with any2 ? Go for the 1st place and call!

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Depending on the read u have on villian

[/ QUOTE ]
No reasonable range makes this a fold.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

I cant believe some people are saying fold. lol

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

If's he's been as LAG as you insinuate... I think it's a tough call, but one you have to make. Chance is too great of you having him dominated with A-Q,J,10 and the like. If you add any suited K's to his range too gotta make the call. I could see folding if you hadn't already put 20% of your stack in the pot, but after that I'm not mucking AK here. Folding is probably a mistake, but a marginal one against a LAG player.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Folding is probably a mistake, but a marginal one against a LAG player.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Read this back to yourself.

2) ?????

3) Profit

Hint: 2 is realise that what you said was total nonsense

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

I fold here. Its a close fold and you probably are ahead but Villain Cl could be trapping here with a big pair knowing that you could quiet possibly call with hands that are behind.

That said he could be doing this with air too. Either way I wait for a better spot than here,

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you think this particular player is very tricky or aggressive, wait till you have a real hand and not just A high.

[/ QUOTE ]AK is a real hand.

[ QUOTE ]
i don't necesarrily think it is a bad call, but i have folded AK before in a huge tournament like this and had the 2nd biggest stack (i was big stack in the final table) show QQ

[/ QUOTE ]Would you be as proud of your fold if villain showed 22?

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you think this particular player is very tricky or aggressive, wait till you have a real hand and not just A high.

[/ QUOTE ]AK is a real hand.

[ QUOTE ]
i don't necesarrily think it is a bad call, but i have folded AK before in a huge tournament like this and had the 2nd biggest stack (i was big stack in the final table) show QQ

[/ QUOTE ]Would you be as proud of your fold if villain showed 22?

[/ QUOTE ]


Don't forget to ring his bell about 890 being a 'huge tournament'.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

this looks like an easy call to me.

i also don't think this is anything like the other situation. here, you don't have the payout implications (not even at the FT yet), you don't have a stack that gives you significant prizepool equity regardless of what you do here, positions are different, SB can be restealing quite wide here, BB can be moving in wide on his stack.

i really can't see any possible reason to fold this other than SB being a total, complete rock who doesn't reraise anything less than AA/KK.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I fold here. Its a close fold and you probably are ahead but Villain Cl could be trapping here with a big pair knowing that you could quiet possibly call with hands that are behind.

That said he could be doing this with air too. Either way I wait for a better spot than here,

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF?!?!?!?! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

None of this makes any sense. You fold even though you say you are likely ahead? Just quit playing now please.

Wait for a better spot? It doesnt get much [censored] better than this!!

Youre only dominated by two hands and flip or dominate the rest. CALL ALL DAY!!!!!!!

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

For those saying fold, you can't be saying it for cEV reasons, right?

If that's the case, I can pretty much guarantee you that it's a call, because unless the payout structure is completely bizarre, cEV and $EV aren't going to diverge significantly here, and none of the other arguments hold enough weight to swing things. To address dedor's post with the laid out arguments for folding:

[ QUOTE ]
1. If we fold and the big stack win, the table will break up and i presumably wont have a big stack to my left. this will be a huge advantage for me. (a point mentioned by sethypooh21)

[/ QUOTE ]
Possibly, but you could still end up in a bad position relative to a big stack. That's a pretty crappy reason to fold, and doesn't impact your equity much.
[ QUOTE ]
2. at best case I'm 72% favorite , if my read is correct and he is doing it with any 2 (live cards) so I am only 63% favorite, at worse case I'm 45% underdog. (lets assume he is not doing it with KK or AA).

[/ QUOTE ]
Getting a sick overlay in this pot, especially because the shortie could easily have a worse ace or Kx and still push here. So you have a huge cEV edge. I don't see how this is an argument to fold.
[ QUOTE ]
3. Although my main concerns is the big stack , there are 2 all-ins here. this means that I need a much better hand to call this because the short stack might be doing this with an A or a K taking one of my outs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhm, okay, but if the shortie somehow wins the main pot, you can still make a profit on this hand by just beating the SB even if you lose to the shortie. So you don't even HAVE to win the main pot to profit here.
[ QUOTE ]
4. my stack size will be still very good after folding ( 5 in chips out of 18 or 19).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the best argument for folding, but I'm pretty sure that cEV and $EV will not diverge significantly until you get deeper into the FT.

As far as your arguments for calling, you missed a big one.

You have a TON of equity (at least even money) in this pot getting better way better than even money on your call.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

[ QUOTE ]
this is really a close one because i also don't want to risk my tourney even if I'm against 26 which i am only 66% favorite.
tough tough call

[/ QUOTE ]

How the hell did this get by without getting criticized at least a million times

Edit: I think it is nice of you guys who actually know how to play to give advice here, but you should probably not waste your time on this guy.

Re: calling all-in with AK (again)
 

Play to win the tourney. You have to win these flips eventually... best spot is here. You do not care about the BBs hand... it doesn't even matter. You have 30k to cover the BB and 140k against the big stack. BB hand is inconsequential her since it's AI for two giant stacks. You're only beating the re-raising isoalting big stack... which is re-raising your button "steal attempt" (for all he knows if you've also been very agro).