Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

One reason that I shy away from short-handed stud/8 is that I don't know what I should do in this spot, where the bring-in has the only low card and completes the bring-in and he seems to do always do that in this spot, or at least he has the last 4-5 times. This is a play that I don't make.

Since there are fewer antes in the pot, you have worse odds to defend against this play than if it were a full table. So it seems like you should play fewer hands than if this were to happen at a full table (if you had the same number of people behind you left to act) . (But it is much less likely to happen at a full table and, if it were, the cards that are out would likely greatly impact your hand.)

Any thoughts on this short-handed situation? How often should you be reraising on third street?

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

How often you reraise the bringin will depend on a lot of things. The biggest factor will be what position you're in (if anyone is left behind you and what others have done before you). It'll also depend on what you feel the range of hands is for the bringin. Generally, if the bringin completes short-handed (4 or less) it's a decent hand, but not a great hand. Razzy lows like 275 and small pairs small kicker like 335 and the sort. Although this can change depending on how the bringin views the others at the table - if he's sick of getting his bringin raised by a maniac every time he'll often complete full with any playable hand - I'll sometimes do this myself if I think lesser hands will call and better hands won't re-raise (i.e. table full of weak, fishy, calling stations). The biggest reason for the reraise is to retake control of the hand to where you force them to catch good to feel good about continuing. You'll have the playing advantage from 4th on so long as they don't catch good and you catch bad. If you both catch bad then you're in reasonably better shape than they are from the standpoint of hand playability.

As a general rule of thumb, if it's short-handed I'll give these bringin completers credit for a ragged 3low and act accordingly. If they're solid (although generally the "solid" players don't complete the bringin for various reasons) I'll be a bit more carefull, but usually if I'm last to act and I feel I have more equity than their likely hand I'll re-raise. I rarely call if it's heads up - unless they can't fold and are destined to get to the river regardless. If they complete with a 4 up and I have any pair bigger than their upcard I'll certainly reraise. I'll also reraise with just about any 3 card low with an ace - any low 3straight with a couple of overcards like 567 and some other hands where I feel I've got good early equity. Basically, run a bunch of sims on 2dimes and see where you're in good shape against their likely hands and act accordingly. Don't always fear they've got a monster hand and shy away simply because the antes aren't huge.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

I think you misunderstood. I am talking about the times when the bring-in has the only door card eight or lower (usually lower) and completes the bring-in, so I have a 9, T, J, Q, or K showing, and so does everyone else except the bring-in. He seems to do this every time he has the only low card out, so his range might be two random hole cards. Such a player is often aggressive on later streets and will semi-bluff and pure-bluff with scary-looking boards. If I raise him, I suspect he is capable of a three-bet bluff or semibluff on third street.

This scenario is more frustrating at tournament final tables with rising antes and bet sizes.

It feels like I should just keep folding as normal and only play the hands that I would against a normal completion, but I'm curious if anyone else loosens up here.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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It feels like I should just keep folding as normal and only play the hands that I would against a normal completion

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Yup.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

I just give them credit for any random low hand and play accordingly.

Just reraise with any overpair or maybe 3str/3flush.

I guess from the tone of your post you are considering throwing away overpairs here because the pot is so small?

In my opinion this is mistake, mainly because your opponent is very likely to have a razz hand, and also he can have a small pair or a 3 flush/2low.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

Definitely don't loosen up.

The thing to remember is that your opponent is getting bad odds on the open-complete.

So if he is doing this with garbage hands (like 2 low + a brick) it is very likely -EV. He will run into an overpair often enough.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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Just reraise with any overpair or maybe 3str/3flush.

I guess from the tone of your post you are considering throwing away overpairs here because the pot is so small?


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No, my main concern is if/how I should play a 3-straight or 3-flush. Those are hands that I often dump at a full table, probably a bit more than I should. Is a hand like (QT)9 worth playing? That's a hand that I probably never play.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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I think you misunderstood. I am talking about the times when the bring-in has the only door card eight or lower (usually lower) and completes the bring-in, so I have a 9, T, J, Q, or K showing, and so does everyone else except the bring-in.

[/ QUOTE ] In this situation you want to reraise (punish) him with any pair. If he does it *every* or virtually every time he has the only low card up, then consider opening up a bit - raising with any pair bigger than his upcard, but only calling with playable hands like a 3 flush or overcard 3 straight. If you're not comfortable that you play poker better than he does from 4th on then don't play anything against them than the overpairs to his door card. When I choose to play non-paired hands against this type I like to keep the pot small until he blanks, then punish him when he does. If he catches what appears to be favorable, then slow down a bit, but you've got to punish the donk for overplaying junk, and you do that by keeping the pressure on when he appears to catch unfavorable. You simply have to play poker well. I feel that simply folding every time I don't have an overpair to his doorcard is giving up too much against this type. They'll generally get into low draw chase mode and punishing that type with even modest high hands is a favorable position to be in.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

I don't play QT9 or QJT or KQJ either. Ever.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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I don't play QT9 or QJT or KQJ either. Ever.

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Even in a shorthanded game?

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

Don't play shorthanded much, but I can't see playing them there, either. I don't know how to play QJT. If I'm in a shorthanded game, there's a reason I'm in there. I'm playing against that guy with hands I know how to play.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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I don't play QT9 or QJT or KQJ either. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ] As a default strategy that's fine. If the bringin completes with *every* low card 3 or 4 handed, you're very likely losing a bit by not considering playing them. The major deciding factor is how well the bringin plays on later streets. Will he peel after bricking 4th? How about 5th? Will he call down with a small 2pr? The more mistakes he makes from 4th on the more we lose by not playing the KQJ and QJT type hands (I could never fault someone for forever folding QJ9).

Consider this, here's how the following hands do heads up vs. a few of the bringin's likely completing hands.

Js Ts Qh .547
Jc 6s 7s .453

Ks Jc Qh .451
6s 8d 3h .549

Js Ts Qh .507
Ah Jc 6h .493

Remember, we're referring so someone who completes *every* time. As you can see, there is opportunity for profit against this sort, provided they make sufficient mistakes later in the hand - which virtually all of these donks, who comlete every time they're the sole low card on board, do. I've found the weak players are there for a reason - and attacking them is a reasonable course of action. If one doesn't have the stomach for the variance involved then simply folding doesn't lose all that much, but it certainly won't maximize EV.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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Js Ts Qh .547
Jc 6s 7s .453

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So we're barely a favorite when the other guy has complete crap. Even if the other guy is completing with anything, we're going to be out of position, and we'll be forced to make Fundamental Theorem errors when his board develops. I honestly don't think I'm giving up anything at all by passing on these hands every time.

QJ9 has the same chance of making a straight as KQJ.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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Js Ts Qh .547
Jc 6s 7s .453

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So we're barely a favorite when the other guy has complete crap. Even if the other guy is completing with anything, we're going to be out of position, and we'll be forced to make Fundamental Theorem errors when his board develops. I honestly don't think I'm giving up anything at all by passing on these hands every time.

QJ9 has the same chance of making a straight as KQJ.

[/ QUOTE ] You've missed the point, entirely. If you don't think you're giving up anything then you can't think you make better decisions than the donk bringing in full all the time. If that's truly the case then find another game.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

The fact that I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I don't understand you. And the fact that I don't think that this is an advantageous situation doesn't prevent me from having an edge over this guy, and to be sure, it doesn't prevent me from having an edge in the game. If he's bringing it in full with anything underneath, he's likely making other errors that I can and will take advantage of.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

Fair enough Andy. You did say you don't play much short-handed.

It's just the short-handed beast inside me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
You can't put him on tilt by doing a lot of folding. You can't run him over by doing a lot of folding. You can't fully exploit him by doing a lot of folding. But you can minimize variance and get a tight image.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

How many players do you consider "shorthanded?"

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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You can't put him on tilt by doing a lot of folding.

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Perhaps, but there's also less chance that I'll tilt myself. Playing $30/60 stud/8, I tend to err on the side of playing too tight. Stud/8 is the most tilt-inducing game I've played, and by passing on a few very small edges here and there, I greatly reduce the chance that something will set me off.

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You can't run him over by doing a lot of folding.

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If he's bringing it in full with junk, he's probably playing pretty loose the rest of the time. He's probably not a good candidate for running over.

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You can't fully exploit him by doing a lot of folding.

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I can exploit him enough.

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But you can minimize variance and get a tight image.

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That second one serves me pretty well most of the time.

I have played quite a bit of shorthanded LHE over the years, and I am quite loose/aggressive in those games.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

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The major deciding factor is how well the bringin plays on later streets. Will he peel after bricking 4th? How about 5th? Will he call down with a small 2pr?

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Let's say that is someone who is aggressive and picks spots for bluff raises. He's not a maniac, but he is capable of an occasional three-bet bluff to keep me on my toes. He's not really a call down sort of guy. If he bricks 4th, he will sometimes represent that brick paired one of his hole cards and sometimes it actually does pair one of his hole cards and I can't figure out what percentage of the time he is likely to be bluffing. I hate having a hand like a pair of tens on third against this sort of player. I feel like I understand how to play against this sort of action in stud-high, but I get very confused in high-low.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

FWIW I ran a sim with the following parameters:

Hero has T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain has xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Dead cards: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] since it's shorthanded and all the other players have big cards.

Hero's equity was generally 44.5-45%.

Tweaking Hero's hand and the dead cards didn't change the numbers much.

Re: Shorthanded Stud/8, Only Low Card Completes Bring-In
 

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I ran a sim with the following parameters:

Hero has T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Villain has xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Dead cards: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] since it's shorthanded and all the other players have big cards.

Hero's equity was generally 44.5-45%.

Tweaking Hero's hand and the dead cards didn't change the numbers much.

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Those numbers are very misleading though.

Even a stud 8 donk will tend to give you credit for an overpair when you reraise him with a Q-T up. This will cause him to make ftop errors on 4th or 5th when both of you keep bricking. (E.g. when he winds up with 237J9 and you have KQJ46 and he folds 5th.)

His actual winshare is a lot lower than his pot equity.