pretty simple AK hand
 

villain is 23/18/8 and we've been tangling for a few days now. i think he's a pretty solid player who has some moves. he should have me at about 21-22/17-18/~4 and probably respects my play.

i bet this turn sometimes. given that i didn't, what do you like on the river?

Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Hold'em Cash Game
$2/$4 Blinds
5 Players
LegoPoker HH Converter

SB: $121.50
<font color="black">Hero (BB): $566.30</font>
UTG: $118.80
<font color="black">CO: $433</font>
BTN: $123

<font color="black">Preflop:</font> Hero is dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 Players)
UTG folds, <font color="red">CO raises to $14</font>, 2 folds, <font color="red">Hero raises to $54</font>, CO calls $40

<font color="black">Flop:</font> ($104) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">Hero bets $80</font>, CO calls $80

<font color="black">Turn:</font> ($264) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks

<font color="black">River:</font> ($264) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero...

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

I like the turn check against villain, river killed your action.

There is some value, but it's not much which makes me wonder why it's even worth betting since I don't see many worse hands calling. I might check again to induce a thin value bet from QQ or the like (EDIT: or a bluff obv)... but in reality I probably just shove.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

Yah if villain had a beast you'd think he'd raise flop or bet turn to protect against clubs and build value. Not a ton can call a river bet, but it's unlikely you're behind anything given the action.

I would fire a 2nd barrel on the turn tho against a regular to protect my 2barreling with air.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

Why shove?

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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Why shove?

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That's what I was saying.

In my 2+2 analysis I'd probably c/c (to induce) since I really don't think worse hands are calling... ever. It would be a heinously played QQ or AQ, and that's it.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

Think you have to check river after checking turn.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

60, call shove

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

like nothing looks you up on the river unless he's one to make hero calls or your image is bad or something.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yah if villain had a beast you'd think he'd raise flop or bet turn to protect against clubs and build value. Not a ton can call a river bet, but it's unlikely you're behind anything given the action.

I would fire a 2nd barrel on the turn tho against a regular to protect my 2barreling with air.

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I agree 100%. Betting this turn will help disguise your bluffs. Also, your hand starts to stink when you check this turn. Villain may reason that you would only check with a real hand, and 2 barrel anything else.

BTW, where you going for a c/r on this turn?

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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60, call shove

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Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

someone explain betting 60.

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Villain may reason that you would only check with a real hand, and 2 barrel anything else.

BTW, where you going for a c/r on this turn?

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fair point, but the villain might think the king is a scare card and bet it to get me to fold, too, so there's balance in checking as well as betting.

yeah, i was going to crai.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

We want to try and price QQ in to calling a $60 bet.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

ok. i think he shoves the flop pretty often against me with that, though.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

bet 120 and call shove.

call shove cos he could have AJ, a busted FD or be putting a move on you.

also, you can't expect him to check the turn with a set or 2 pair so you're like always ahead here.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

right, i'm never folding. i'm kind of unsure about his range, though, and don't know what the best move is for extraction.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

my idea with 60 is it gets crying calls from a lot of medium strength hands and can also induce a shove, you arent folding to a push anyways, so this is better than letting some medium pair have a free showdown since few people will turn a hand like 99 into a bluff if given a free showdown chance, but might raise your weak block.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

i get you.

no wonder this guy is a respected poster.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

I definately bet/call this turn for all the reasons stated (but mostly bc I double barrel alot anyway)...Why didnt you?

As played, I think you have to bet the river. He isnt going to bet with his QQ or TT or whatever very often I dont think.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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I definately bet/call this turn for all the reasons stated (but mostly bc I double barrel alot anyway)...Why didnt you?

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i bet this turn pretty often. in the flow of the game, i thought i might get a bet or a shove out of him.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

the more I think about this one, I like the underbet on the river. Villain can't get a free show down, he still might raise you on a bluff, and you get paid off 100% of the time when he has AJ (and feared your overpair on the flop).

What do you think villain puts you on in this hand? and so what might he call a river bet with?

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

I think his range is largely rather weak holdings and you probably aren't getting too much value here most of the time. I doubt he bets many hands that are weaker than yours on the river, so you end up calling when you are behind on the river. Therefore, I think you should bet small ($60) as we can probably extract a little value from something weaker, and may induce a raise from something weaker that assumes you are weak and trying to get a cheap showdown. If you bet too much more, I think you let him play perfectly.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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What do you think villain puts you on in this hand? and so what might he call a river bet with?

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he probably thinks my range is fairly wide; i haven't been shy about 3betting him. if he assumes that i can have anything from an overpair to air after betting the flop and checking the turn, he's correct.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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What do you think villain puts you on in this hand? and so what might he call a river bet with?

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he probably thinks my range is fairly wide; i haven't been shy about 3betting him. if he assumes that i can have anything from an overpair to air after betting the flop and checking the turn, he's correct.

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I think this is a big reason to bet this river. He's probably less likely to bluff a weak hand in this spot if you check to him, and much more likely to call with 1 pair.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

I think you should bet $150 on the river, and call a push (although that would be ugly because it would point towards him having a set).

I'm not sure what his range might be here. He could be floating the flop with a medium pair (66-TT or QQ), AJ is possible, maybe JTs, and he could be slowplaying a set.

The problem is that with most of those hands he's going to fold to a river bet with the A and K on board. But he'll probably check behind with them too if you check the river. So I don't see any value in checking if he has a weakish one pair hand.

Anyways, I think that the best play is to bet 1/2 PSB on the river in hopes that he made a lower aces-up, or just top pair.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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my idea with 60 is it gets crying calls from a lot of medium strength hands and can also induce a shove, you arent folding to a push anyways, so this is better than letting some medium pair have a free showdown since few people will turn a hand like 99 into a bluff if given a free showdown chance, but might raise your weak block.

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Very interesting reasoning. I never considered making a weakish river bet to induce a crying call or a potential bluff raise. This looks like a good spot for it, so I will have to add this to my repertoire.

Would anyone ever advocate betting $60 as a bluff here though? Say if OP had 9d8d here? I can see the villain calling a less than 1/4 PSB with QQ, but such a weak bet does seem to make a river bluff unlikely.

I'm curious what people would do with 9d8d in this situation on the river. Would you guys try to bluff this river scare card after he showed weakeness on the turn? If so, what bet size?

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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my idea with 60 is it gets crying calls from a lot of medium strength hands and can also induce a shove, you arent folding to a push anyways, so this is better than letting some medium pair have a free showdown since few people will turn a hand like 99 into a bluff if given a free showdown chance, but might raise your weak block.

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if he knows your a solid player and a decent one, i dont think your going to get bluff shoved on as often as you think. your not going to seriously be betting $60 with QQ or whatever much here (sometimes).

i think a bet of like $110 or something might work better. or like $90.

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

Why no turn bet here? Would you bet AQcc here?

Re: pretty simple AK hand
 

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60, call shove

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this is hot. i need to think like the hobo more