\"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

Before showdown, random player says "DEALER, I WANT TO SEE ALL HANDS."

Winning player shows hand. Loser throws hand into the muck. Is dealer supposed to show the table the hand?

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

If the cards are easily idenfiable and a player who was dealt into the hand asks, then yes the dealer should turn them over. Sometimes dealers don't hear the player. Also some rooms have rules against this such as Wynn.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

Some rooms allow you to ask to "see all hands if a showdown occurs" as long as you ask before any cards hit the muck. They will show you those particular hands only. Other rooms like Pechanga you have to ask the dealer to "show all hands at showdown" and he will show all hands until the dealer session ends, then you will have to tell the next dealer the same thing. Anybody that was dealt a hand or sitting at a table can ask. Before the dealer flips the hand over you will notice him touching the cards that are in the muck "dead cards in deck" to kill the hand, just in case the opponent folded what would of been the winning hand in error.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Other rooms like Pechanga you have to ask the dealer to "show all hands at showdown" and he will show all hands until the dealer session ends, then you will have to tell the next dealer the same thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously? Thats [censored] awful.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

Yesterday at Casino AZ 5-150 I had raised the big blind from two off the button, it was my third raise in my short time at the table. I hit the flop with the BB, Q44. Check, I bet $15 (half pot), the BB makes it $45. I don't wait long, I make it $120. He thinks for a while and calls.

Turn is a deuce. Check, check. River an ace. He pushes for his remaining $100. Unhappily, I call. Player to my left says "Dealer, I want to see both those hands.". BB shows J4. Pissed, I take my cards and make to shove them deep in the muck, but stop and think about it again. I turn over A5o.

I got lots of action after that. Unfortunately I got stacked when my full house was cracked by a straight flush and AA allin preflop got cracked by quad queens.

I could have lectured the guy that he had no right to see my hand because there was no possibility of collusion in the hand. I could have been an angry nit and made the table a less fun place to play at. But I think it's better to just smile and bear it and play poker.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

I had a ruling that really pissed me off a few weeks ago @ Resorts Casino outside of Chicago.

I had been playing pretty aggro/loose, and this hand came down where I had TT vs. AA on like a 9-high board. The river went check, check. Villian tables his Aces and I muck. A player at the table not invoved in the pot in any way asks to see my cards. Before I even have a chance to protest the dealer pulls my hand out of the muck and shows the table.

Then I protest, and the dealer says I "called the other player's check" so the table can ask to see my cards one time every half hour.

I LOLed.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had a ruling that really pissed me off a few weeks ago @ Resorts Casino outside of Chicago... dealer says I "called the other player's check" so the table can ask to see my cards one time every half hour. I LOLed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three problems:

1. letting this piss you off
2. laughing at the legitimate reason why it's allowed
3. using, in a live cardroom, an internet acronym propagated by 12 year olds

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before showdown, random player says "DEALER, I WANT TO SEE ALL HANDS."

Winning player shows hand. Loser throws hand into the muck. Is dealer supposed to show the table the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, in many places the answer is yes. However, on page 54 of "Hayduke's Comprehensive, Authoritative, Unimpeachable, Rules of Poker" it is clearly stated that before tabling the mucked hand, the dealer should require the requesting player to explain exactly what it is that has caused him to suspect the other players of collusion.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

At the Borgata I was in the 1 seat and pretty much stuck my own cards into the muck when my T high flush was no good against an A high. It was the first hand I played at the table and myself and A high guy got in a bit of a raising war on the turn and forced out some guy with 2 pair and he demanded to see my cards. Dealer said no as they had already been mucked (even though they were pretty clearly identifiable), but I guess this can vary from room to room.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]

I could have lectured the guy that he had no right to see my hand because there was no possibility of collusion in the hand. I could have been an angry nit and made the table a less fun place to play at. But I think it's better to just smile and bear it and play poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

The point being is he most likely would have had no idea what the manifest function of "see all hands rule" is.( To check for and prevent collusion).
Most players just think it is some sort of "right" to just see hands at showdown to gain information on how individuals play.

IF called, the floor at CAZ will explain that overuse of the "rule" will result in a warning.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

Is it unethical to shove them in the muck so that they are unidentifiable?

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

just as unethical as wanting to see a losing players hand when u werent in the hand at all

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

Well, I don't want to be a nitty, douche just because someone else is doing it. However, I see your point. But still, is it nitty, unethical?

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it unethical to shove them in the muck so that they are unidentifiable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unethical if IWTSTH is being abused, but you might get in trouble.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it unethical to shove them in the muck so that they are unidentifiable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unethical if IWTSTH is being abused, but you might get in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also a problem if the dealer is doing his/her job well and is ready to honor the IWTSTH request. To truly muck them to be unidentifiable will often require invading the dealer's space

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is it unethical to shove them in the muck so that they are unidentifiable?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not unethical if IWTSTH is being abused, but you might get in trouble.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you elaborate?

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

You could alway go to gagsngifts or a halloween store, buy a fake hand, keep it in your pocket, and when some douchebag asks to "see that hand," whip it out and show it to him.

-J

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
just as unethical as wanting to see a losing players hand when u werent in the hand at all

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BULL I'VE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!

I'm paying my rake and playing at the table part of the game is information of how the other player are playing. If you have a problem with a player out of the hand requesting to see a hand then YOU should consider not playing. In Montana it's ALLOWED by LAW so it is ETHICAL. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BULL I'VE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!

I'm paying my rake and playing at the table part of the game is information of how the other player are playing. If you have a problem with a player out of the hand requesting to see a hand then YOU should consider not playing. In Montana it's ALLOWED by LAW so it is ETHICAL

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty uptight, aren't we? Try to keep your indignation to a dull roar.

I play at Canterbury, and if you took that attitude at the table you'd be 1) a dick and 2) a dick

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just as unethical as wanting to see a losing players hand when u werent in the hand at all

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BULL I'VE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!

Not gunna be leveled or hijacked. I really want an answer to this. Is it unethical for me to shove my cards deep into the muck?
I'm paying my rake and playing at the table part of the game is information of how the other player are playing. If you have a problem with a player out of the hand requesting to see a hand then YOU should consider not playing. In Montana it's ALLOWED by LAW so it is ETHICAL. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Intent of seeing all hands is to prevent collusion, not allow you to gain information just b/c you pay rake.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just as unethical as wanting to see a losing players hand when u werent in the hand at all

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BULL I'VE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!

Not gunna be leveled or hijacked. I really want an answer to this. Is it unethical for me to shove my cards deep into the muck?
I'm paying my rake and playing at the table part of the game is information of how the other player are playing. If you have a problem with a player out of the hand requesting to see a hand then YOU should consider not playing. In Montana it's ALLOWED by LAW so it is ETHICAL. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Intent of seeing all hands is to prevent collusion, not allow you to gain information just b/c you pay rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what do you get for paying rake?

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then what do you get for paying rake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your entire experience in a cardroom.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
You could alway go to gagsngifts or a halloween store, buy a fake hand, keep it in your pocket, and when some douchebag asks to "see that hand," whip it out and show it to him.

-J

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it proper etiquette to leave the middle finger extended?

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just as unethical as wanting to see a losing players hand when u werent in the hand at all

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BULL I'VE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!

Not gunna be leveled or hijacked. I really want an answer to this. Is it unethical for me to shove my cards deep into the muck?
I'm paying my rake and playing at the table part of the game is information of how the other player are playing. If you have a problem with a player out of the hand requesting to see a hand then YOU should consider not playing. In Montana it's ALLOWED by LAW so it is ETHICAL. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Intent of seeing all hands is to prevent collusion, not allow you to gain information just b/c you pay rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then what do you get for paying rake?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tables, chairs, cards, chips, security and the infrastructure that brings people together to play the game we love.

If you want to see MY hand, pay ME -- not the rake. If the law in Montana lets you see hands whenver you want and for whatever purpose you want, then Montana sucks.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
just as unethical as wanting to see a losing players hand when u werent in the hand at all

[/ QUOTE ]

THIS IS THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF BULL I'VE HEARD IN A LONG TIME!!

Not gunna be leveled or hijacked. I really want an answer to this. Is it unethical for me to shove my cards deep into the muck?
I'm paying my rake and playing at the table part of the game is information of how the other player are playing. If you have a problem with a player out of the hand requesting to see a hand then YOU should consider not playing. In Montana it's ALLOWED by LAW so it is ETHICAL. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Intent of seeing all hands is to prevent collusion, not allow you to gain information just b/c you pay rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Try explaining that to the drunk guy, the deaf lady, the maniac who doesn't speak a lick of English and the two old nits you have "...been coming to this cardroom since you were in diapers."

It just ain't worth it...

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before showdown, random player says "DEALER, I WANT TO SEE ALL HANDS."



[/ QUOTE ]

"FLOOR. SEAT CHANGE PLEASE...or a baseball bat, whichever's easier.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, on page 54 of "Hayduke's Comprehensive, Authoritative, Unimpeachable, Rules of Poker" it is clearly stated that before tabling the mucked hand, the dealer should require the requesting player to explain exactly what it is that has caused him to suspect the other players of collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really like that.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
However, on page 54 of "Hayduke's Comprehensive, Authoritative, Unimpeachable, Rules of Poker" it is clearly stated that before tabling the mucked hand, the dealer should require the requesting player to explain exactly what it is that has caused him to suspect the other players of collusion.

[/ QUOTE ]
I really like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

It does throw a Monkey Wrench into the IWTSTHer's plans.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before showdown, random player says "DEALER, I WANT TO SEE ALL HANDS."

Winning player shows hand. Loser throws hand into the muck. Is dealer supposed to show the table the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
In most cardrooms, I would say yes.

If the same random player did it again, I would say WTF?

If someone did that to me, we would have a discussion about it, me, the player, the dealer, the floor and any other higher level casino employee if need be.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Before showdown, random player says "DEALER, I WANT TO SEE ALL HANDS."

Winning player shows hand. Loser throws hand into the muck. Is dealer supposed to show the table the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
How a good dealer handles the situation:
(after the hand is stuck in the muck and throughly mixed)

What? Huh? Oh, you wanted to see the hand? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, I am kind of hard of hearing in my left ear. Sorry. Why did you want to see the hand anyways? Do you think someone is cheating? Sorry, I did not hear your request -- post your blind please.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

I've seen someone removed from the table of a local Indian casino in South Florida for mucking their hands straight into the deck when the dealer was requested to show the hands.

The removed person in question had asked to see another person's hand for no apparent reason, and I guess it pissed the other guy off because it was a runner-runner beat. So the upset guy asked the next hand to see the removed person's cards and the person pushed them directly into the muck, instead. The dealer gives them a warning not to do it again, and they proceed to do so again a few hands later and the floor comes over and makes a ruling that he's had enough for the night.

So yeah, different casinos treat it differently. Like most controvery rulings there isn't much of an industry standard.

By the way, a good dealer is aware of how many cards are entering the muck on each hand to prevent cheating. Although I find it unlikely that a person would try to hang onto a card in a poker game, it's still a possibility, so if a dealer requests a player not to place his cards directly into the muck, I can't really see why I'd disagree with their request.

As far as the other scenarios mentioned above, I've never seen a dealer pull cards out of the muck when the request was made after the cards had already touched it. Once it hit the muck, I'd be extremely pissed off if a dealer pulls it back out at someone's late request.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Before showdown, random player says "DEALER, I WANT TO SEE ALL HANDS."

Winning player shows hand. Loser throws hand into the muck. Is dealer supposed to show the table the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]
How a good dealer handles the situation:
(after the hand is stuck in the muck and throughly mixed)

What? Huh? Oh, you wanted to see the hand? I'm sorry, I didn't hear you, I am kind of hard of hearing in my left ear. Sorry. Why did you want to see the hand anyways? Do you think someone is cheating? Sorry, I did not hear your request -- post your blind please.

[/ QUOTE ]

At our local indian casino it seems that the dealers have been recently trained to just quickly take a folded hand and stick them right in the muck quickly as a matter of habit. If anyone asks to see the hand it's impossible to find those two cards then.

I like this, it avoids a lot of hassle.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

"If you want to see MY hand, pay ME -- not the rake. If the law in Montana lets you see hands whenver you want and for whatever purpose you want, then Montana sucks."

What are you afraid of to show a hand or two once in awhile when requested? Maybe you don't want other players too see just how bad of cards you called down with? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Check out the first hit on Google when you type...
 

..."I want to see that hand"

Just another reason why Google rules. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

~ Rick

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

3. a dick, 4. a dick, 5. a dick, 6. a dick

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes dealers don't hear the player. Also some rooms have rules against this such as Wynn.

[/ QUOTE ]please explain.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes dealers don't hear the player. Also some rooms have rules against this such as Wynn.

[/ QUOTE ]please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wynn dealers usually now just flat say "no" to such requests. Sometimes they'll explain the details. Only the player himself or the floor is allowed to turn over someone's mucked hand at the showdown. If you want the floor to do it, you must make a case to him as to why you think that player is cheating and what you expect the cards to show to prove it.

Basically IWTSTH is banned at Wynn.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

why wouldn't you want others to see "how bad of cards you called down with?" That's built-in bluff equity man. Of course you want people to think you call down with total turds.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes dealers don't hear the player. Also some rooms have rules against this such as Wynn.

[/ QUOTE ]please explain.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wynn dealers usually now just flat say "no" to such requests. Sometimes they'll explain the details. Only the player himself or the floor is allowed to turn over someone's mucked hand at the showdown. If you want the floor to do it, you must make a case to him as to why you think that player is cheating and what you expect the cards to show to prove it.

Basically IWTSTH is banned at Wynn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This room will get my business when I go to Vegas. A room with a clue about this rule, unbelievable. At my local inidan casino, Its abused badly.

Re: \"I WANT TO SEE THAT HAND\"
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If you want to see MY hand, pay ME -- not the rake. If the law in Montana lets you see hands whenver you want and for whatever purpose you want, then Montana sucks."

What are you afraid of to show a hand or two once in awhile when requested? Maybe you don't want other players too see just how bad of cards you called down with? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not "afraid" of showing a losing hand -- internet players have learned poker where they get complete hand histories and think they are always entitled to know what other players are playing. In internet poker, there is more collusion and this is very important. While it also ends up being a useful tool to learn about a player, it is not your right to see a losing hand all the time -- except (apparently) in Montana. If you want to see my hand, pay me and I will show it to you.