600NL: QJs
 

Please comment on any part of this hand. It made me unhappy. Villain is 23/12/4.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $6 BB (6 handed) Hand History converter Courtesy of PokerZion.com

MP ($905)
Hero ($591)
Button ($1384)
SB ($609)
BB ($589.85)
UTG ($525)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $18</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $18, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls $12.

Flop: ($57) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $45</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $120</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $75.

Turn: ($297) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $245</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $542

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

do you think you have no FE on the flop 150bb deeP

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Yes, that's what I feared. Maybe I was too pessimistic.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

bb is repping a pretty strong hand, his preflop numbers are kinda nitty so i guess 66 is right there.

i think i gamble, but i understand your line

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

I shove the flop for sure. He can def c/r worse draws here.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
bb is repping a pretty strong hand, his preflop numbers are kinda nitty so i guess 66 is right there.

i think i gamble, but i understand your line

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO his pf numbers are not much different from a 24/20 in this spot.

I actually think he is more likely to repop JJ pf and less likely to repop AK pf which actually favours our hand here. (given he can fold AK or AQ). If we also imagine that vill can't have a better FD (in terms of equity against our hand since we have a pair with ours) then I think a shove makes sense.

His aggro number aswell is high which means he may overvalue hands and be a more betty/foldy type person.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

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I shove the flop for sure. He can def c/r worse draws here.

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calling might be better vs worse draws

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

you played this hand fine

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

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his preflop numbers are kinda nitty

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but this is post-flop no?? !?

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

With position, I don't mind your flop flatcall. However, I would normally 3bet this to $375 and obv call shove. This is jus becuzc, IMO, you HAVE to make your hand on the turn or face a big bet, pricing you out. If you think about it, flop is reraise/call shove or fold. * on a side note- J or diamond on the turn=11 outs x2= 22% to make a hand then.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

I don't think an Ace would c/r flop. UTG can't count on you to bet when checked to and risk giving a free card. Similarly, a set isn't going to play this way either.

I think if you 3bet, it makes your hand look stronger but won't get him to fold his Ace (I think that's what he's representing).

When you are c/r on the flop like this, I think you need to make a plan for blank turns such as what you were given. Flop chk/raise is going to be followed up by a turn lead and if you "float" here you're not going to put in a bet on the turn with your weak hand and you're giving him a free shot at the pot?

Either fold to flop c/r or 3b; otherwise you'll be playing an expensive guessing game. Since his hand looks inconsistent with something strong I'd 3b.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

I shove, he's more likely to make a mistake.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
you played this hand fine

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Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Re raising and getting it on on the flop is an option.

As played, I don't see how else you can play the turn.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
do you think you have no FE on the flop 150bb deeP

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[ QUOTE ]
Yes, that's what I feared. Maybe I was too pessimistic.

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Stacks look to be 100bb to me

I shove this flop all day

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

just felt this hand on the flop while you have lots of equity.
Or checkbehind (meh).

You need to get to the river, and he won't let you do that by just calling his c/r, as you already know he's shoving turn MOST of the time, pricing you out.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

reasons to call: you think u have better draw, want to keep him on his and stack him when u both hit or Q high takes pot on riv.

reasons to raise: large FE, pair+nice FD is always pushable

I shove personally

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Do you guys really think a lot of people c/r fold here with a bare A?

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

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Do you guys really think a lot of people c/r fold here with a bare A?

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no

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys really think a lot of people c/r fold here with a bare A?

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No, I think a lot of people are c/r here with all kinds of outlandish [censored] and will follow up and fire this turn with high frequency.

If you're playing in the same games I am, c-bets are raised/checkraised with such frequency now that shoving this flop is essential just to keep these people off your back. Also, even when called and slightly behind, shania/meta considerations make this +EV imo.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys really think a lot of people c/r fold here with a bare A?

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No, I think a lot of people are c/r here with all kinds of outlandish [censored] and will follow up and fire this turn with high frequency.

If you're playing in the same games I am, c-bets are raised/checkraised with such frequency now that shoving this flop is essential just to keep these people off your back. Also, even when called and slightly behind, shania/meta considerations make this +EV imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is it weird that my first instinct when I saw this hand was "shove the turn for value" ?

I definitely agree with what you're saying about metagame though, and the fact that our bet just looks like a position bet makes him even more likely to c/r with cheese.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Id just shove flop

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you guys really think a lot of people c/r fold here with a bare A?

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No, I think a lot of people are c/r here with all kinds of outlandish [censored] and will follow up and fire this turn with high frequency.

If you're playing in the same games I am, c-bets are raised/checkraised with such frequency now that shoving this flop is essential just to keep these people off your back. Also, even when called and slightly behind, shania/meta considerations make this +EV imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Is it weird that my first instinct when I saw this hand was "shove the turn for value" ?

I definitely agree with what you're saying about metagame though, and the fact that our bet just looks like a position bet makes him even more likely to c/r with cheese.

[/ QUOTE ]

shoving the turn for value seems like a bad idea. The guy is pot committed with AX. The only value of shoving the turn is worse draws calling - who I think come along on the flop anyways if we shove.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[censored], I misread the OP and thought we were pfr

I think the way OP played it is generally best here

Sometimes players like Villain will freeze up on the turn even with a pretty good hand and let you see the river for free

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

I really thinks this is an excellent spot to shove.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
shoving the turn for value seems like a bad idea. The guy is pot committed with AX. The only value of shoving the turn is worse draws calling - who I think come along on the flop anyways if we shove.

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Yah, I know, but I just thought that it was such a likely bluff, and stack sizes suck for a river bluff+he's committed with draws.

Then I realized that he doesn't need to show up with the best hand very often to make that play suck, and he needs to have a good chunk of air, which he probably doesn't.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

i play it the same.
you can make a easy call for 75$ on the flop and he has for sure a strong hand with that he is willing to put his stack in, if you make your flush. i dont think you have much FE and if its a move, he will give up on the turn.

the only problem about calling is, if he is on a worse flushdraw and bets strong on the turn again...

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Seems fine to me.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

shove any gutshot flush draw but not a hand where we only have "opmistic outs"

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Is taking a free card here really bad 3 handed? (If so, plz explain why)

It seems like charging yourself to draw, when you risk being checkriased with air/trash ( especially if Ax isn't in your cold call range pre) is not optimal. Or do we just have SOOOO much equity that it doesn't matter?

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is taking a free card here really bad 3 handed? (If so, plz explain why)

It seems like charging yourself to draw, when you risk being checkriased with air/trash ( especially if Ax isn't in your cold call range pre) is not optimal. Or do we just have SOOOO much equity that it doesn't matter?

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Do I understand correctly that you mean checking behind on the flop? That would be a disaster IMO, since we are so likely to draw out, even if they don't fold. I view it as a free shot at the pot really, with all that equity behind. As it went, this hand did not exactly go as planned [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is taking a free card here really bad 3 handed? (If so, plz explain why)

It seems like charging yourself to draw, when you risk being checkriased with air/trash ( especially if Ax isn't in your cold call range pre) is not optimal. Or do we just have SOOOO much equity that it doesn't matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I understand correctly that you mean checking behind on the flop? That would be a disaster IMO, since we are so likely to draw out, even if they don't fold. I view it as a free shot at the pot really, with all that equity behind. As it went, this hand did not exactly go as planned [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

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Then you must felt this hand if you bet at all, right? Seems like you MUST felt, b/c you face a real risk of being pushed out with air/worse draw/garbage ace.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is taking a free card here really bad 3 handed? (If so, plz explain why)

It seems like charging yourself to draw, when you risk being checkriased with air/trash ( especially if Ax isn't in your cold call range pre) is not optimal. Or do we just have SOOOO much equity that it doesn't matter?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do I understand correctly that you mean checking behind on the flop? That would be a disaster IMO, since we are so likely to draw out, even if they don't fold. I view it as a free shot at the pot really, with all that equity behind. As it went, this hand did not exactly go as planned [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[/ QUOTE ]

Then you must felt this hand if you bet at all, right? Seems like you MUST felt, b/c you face a real risk of being pushed out with air/worse draw/garbage ace.

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No, I don't agree. Why do I face this risk particularly for this type of flop? I don't see why these hands are suddenly very likely to push me out of this pot.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

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I don't see why these hands are suddenly very likely to push me out of this pot.

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You folded your monster didn't you?

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Second pair with 9 outs to a flush on the turn does not constitute a monster IMO. Obviously, this hand is not a good example of why to bet this flop.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

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Is taking a free card here really bad 3 handed?

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No.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

it was a monster on the flop..

remember, i was one who said jam the flop in the first place.

I'm just thinking (in retrospect) that if you're folding on this turn, then maybe not betting flop IP might be an option.


itz late, i think i just realized why u want to fold turn, b/c it is a total brick and your equity went way down. I assume you're calling though if you hit Q or J? I guess it makes sense.

I just hate these spots though, cause you know that turn shove is coming like 95% of the time, and you really need to get to the river.


meh, i can't think str8. i'll re read the whole thread after sleep

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

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That would be a disaster IMO, since we are so likely to draw out, even if they don't fold.

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If they both fold, you had the best hand, except for a freak KK fold by the PFR, or a KJ fold.

If you have the best hand, you're usually miles ahead.

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I view it as a free shot at the pot really, with all that equity behind.

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Granted, you will take down the pot a ton, but that's not really a big gain, with this hand, for the above mentioned reasons.

Betting is standard, of course, since it's unlikely that you get c/red, and even when you do, you have options, but checking here a small percentage of the time can work wonders, sometimes.

Also remember than you might be able to pick off bluffs, or even value bet your J.

Also, it disguises your hand, since everybody expects you to bet a flush draw.

Re: 600NL: QJs
 

Did you not shove because flop would be an overbet shove?