The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

Tournament has only been running like 15 minutes so no real specific read on this player. Hes basically an unknown, hasn't done anything terribly out of line.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Tournament
Blinds: t15/t30
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: t1650
UTG+1: t2640
MP1: t1200
MP2: t1880
MP3: t2750
CO: t3280
Hero: t1790
SB: t1000
BB: t1740

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to t60</font>, 2 folds, MP2 calls t60 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t105)</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls t60 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t165)</font>, SB calls t45 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t225)</font>, BB calls t30 <font color="aaaaaa">(pot was t270)</font>.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (t300, 5 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets t300</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero?

Heres what confuses me. Most stuper donks upon hitting a big hand like two pair will slow play, or certainly not lead out a full pot bet. Could he just call AK/AQ here pre? Certainly AQ, possibly AK. Could he lead a draw here?

Your play sirs?

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I don't like any play here but I reluctantly fold.

I'm not familiar at all with bigger tournaments, but if this is a donk who's jumping up to play in this for some fun (or satted in, I'm not familiar with this tournament), he very well could be protecting A9/A5 from draws that he fear may check behind that might be able to fear their kicker.

Any raise to find out where you're at pot commits you, and you don't want to get all your chips in w/ only a pair and a weak kicker.

A call is the other option in my mind but I don't really like it, I guess if a spade comes and he looks afraid of it then you can try and rep it, but if he C/Rs you you might have to fold leaving yourself w/ 800-1000. And if a non-spade comes and he fires more then you still have no more information than when he made this bet, leaving you with an even tougher call.

I'd just fold here, his range is probably A9/A5/AQ/87s-T9s, NFD 4/5 of the time, and a set of nines or fives the other 20%.

You're pretty far behind to everything but a flush draw.

Being an occasional satellite donk myself, this looks like (if there are satellites to this tourny, I'm not sure what it is) a nervous satellite player trying to protect his A9/55/99 from a flush draw. This would be a weird play for a donk, IMO.... they're more fond of the check-call. AQ is possible but unlikely, IMO. He'd call pre-flop but probably would check or at least not PSB the flop.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

He has AT so shove for value.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

&lt;-------self proclaimed and accused of being, DONK. I have 2 pair here minimum, probably 555. Fold

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I'd call.

I suppose I should edit to mention that the reason I call is b/c most of my opponents think that they should bet more w/marginal hands here like Ax (where x is small).

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

id fold

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

Why are you assuming he is a donkey? This bet is pretty standard (although I'd prob bet ~250) with a hand like A9 or 55.

fold

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

Obv depends in my opinion on buy-in. Usually you shouldn`t expect to be behind vs a random donk.
What confuses me also is the size of the bet. Usually ppl donk smaller with a FD...
I`d really wanna scope him.
Think I`d still shove it in because its a donkament and i love doubling up early:). Obv this assumes that the buy-in is lower than 50$.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

Bond --

It's two pair or a bigger ace too often to continue. If so many players weren't maniacally obsessed with protecting against draws, it might be closer.

Fold. I don't love doing it but I don't think it's too close.

--Nate

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]


It's two pair or a bigger ace too often to continue. If so many players weren't maniacally obsessed with protecting against draws, it might be closer.



[/ QUOTE ]

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I would fold. There are 5 callers and everybody can have 2+2 or even set now. Against which hand, made a pot-sized bet, r u supposing to win here? Against AT? Or maybe against a pure bluff?

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

think this early with 60 chips invested this is a shrug of the shoulders fold - theres just too many hands he can have where your behind and even those your ahead of its not by much - why invest roughly 16% of your stack this early in a very iffy situation. enuf donks around where you can move aggressively with a far higher certainty of being ahead

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

9-5 in the BB bets here and bets hard with an ace and two spades out... and yes...I call here PRF if I'm in the BB with three players in and 30 more to complete (Yes I'm a splashy gambling donkey early on).

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I think the biggest mistake here is not reraising PF. I dont respect UTG minraises and neither should you. Nor do I respect any of the calls here. This hand is much easier to play when a real raise is put in PF, not this BS UTG crap. As played, this is either fold or all-in and folding feels more right here than jamming.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I think this is a fold. If you are indeed ahead here, which I'm not sure your ahead of much aside from AT. Better spots to pick off donk then on this hand. AQ and AK have you dominated and do you wanna stack off a flush draw here?

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

On 2+2 or in a book some twit said "if you think you have the best hand on the flop and a draw is showing, bet 3/4 to pot to price them off a draw"

Someone actually listened? Who would have thought?!!


PS Fold...the donk has a better hand.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think the biggest mistake here is not reraising PF. I dont respect UTG minraises and neither should you. Nor do I respect any of the calls here. This hand is much easier to play when a real raise is put in PF, not this BS UTG crap. As played, this is either fold or all-in and folding feels more right here than jamming.

[/ QUOTE ]

What does "respecting" the raise have anything to do with? This is a very easy call pf, repopping is bad.

"this hand is much easier to play when a real raise is put in PF, not this BS UTG crap."

And what does that have to do with the EV of playing it this way?

Flop is a clear call or fold, pushing is a disaster.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

i assume when you called the min raise with Axs, you figured this would be a 4-5 way pot. you didn't call to play for all your chips with tpgk, did you ???

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I'd like to ask about the preflop action here - I'm trying to learn about how to play hands like this when blinds are so small in relation to stack sizes.

ansky, what is wrong with the preflop reraise? Are we playing AJ suited as if it were A2 suited, only for the flush value?

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to ask about the preflop action here - I'm trying to learn about how to play hands like this when blinds are so small in relation to stack sizes.

ansky, what is wrong with the preflop reraise? Are we playing AJ suited as if it were A2 suited, only for the flush value?

[/ QUOTE ]

no... why do you need to play it for x value? Just play it for what happens on the flop. There are situations in which I would go broke w/ 1 pair here, and situations where I would fold trips... it depends yo.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
ansky, what is wrong with the preflop reraise? Are we playing AJ suited as if it were A2 suited, only for the flush value?

[/ QUOTE ]'
AJs generally doesn't play very well OOP deep, especially if your postflop game isn't too strong.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I call the flop, but I'm a station.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]

AJs generally doesn't play very well OOP deep

[/ QUOTE ]

What you talking about Willis?

Hero is on the button.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AJs generally doesn't play very well OOP deep

[/ QUOTE ]

What you talking about Willis?

Hero is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

damn, you beat me to it.

I still think raising is a better play here PF and I'll just agree to disagree with Ansky on that part.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd like to ask about the preflop action here - I'm trying to learn about how to play hands like this when blinds are so small in relation to stack sizes.

ansky, what is wrong with the preflop reraise? Are we playing AJ suited as if it were A2 suited, only for the flush value?

[/ QUOTE ]

i know this isn't the main focus but I don't think re-raising here prf is bad either since we have the puck and the blinds allow us to....

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AJs generally doesn't play very well OOP deep

[/ QUOTE ]

What you talking about Willis?

Hero is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

damn, you beat me to it.

I still think raising is a better play here PF and I'll just agree to disagree with Ansky on that part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but your logic is "raise that pussy ass [censored] like a man"

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AJs generally doesn't play very well OOP deep

[/ QUOTE ]

What you talking about Willis?

Hero is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

damn, you beat me to it.

I still think raising is a better play here PF and I'll just agree to disagree with Ansky on that part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but your logic is "raise that pussy ass [censored] like a man"

[/ QUOTE ]

only pussies need logic

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AJs generally doesn't play very well OOP deep

[/ QUOTE ]

What you talking about Willis?

Hero is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

damn, you beat me to it.

I still think raising is a better play here PF and I'll just agree to disagree with Ansky on that part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but your logic is "raise that pussy ass [censored] like a man"

[/ QUOTE ]

only pussies need logic

[/ QUOTE ]

Both funny and strikingly true.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

AJs generally doesn't play very well OOP deep

[/ QUOTE ]

What you talking about Willis?

Hero is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

damn, you beat me to it.

I still think raising is a better play here PF and I'll just agree to disagree with Ansky on that part.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but your logic is "raise that pussy ass [censored] like a man"

[/ QUOTE ]
The best argument for reraising PF is that we do have position and it's going to make it soooo much easier to pick up this pot (and obviously fold if we're 4-bet). So many bad players will happily call OOP and check/fold the flop.

Now we're in kind of a crap spot. I can't imagine being ahead. But we DO have a good top pair, and a backdoor nut flush draw! Folding is probably the smart play, though I have a sinking feeling you will see a worse Ax here a decent % of the time.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I guess I'm a donk, because if I were the BB and had A9, 99, or 55, I'd be betting between $250-$300 into that pot.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

why not just limp preflop? if you want to raise, make a substantial raise to 3 or 4 times the big blind. minraising is just idiotic, you're letting the bb in with almost any hand and you have no idea where you stand against any of the callers. i would probably fold here, but your mistake here wasn't on the flop (seeing as that was a tricky situation, and calling or folding could have been argued) but preflop.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
why not just limp preflop? if you want to raise, make a substantial raise to 3 or 4 times the big blind. minraising is just idiotic, you're letting the bb in with almost any hand and you have no idea where you stand against any of the callers. i would probably fold here, but your mistake here wasn't on the flop (seeing as that was a tricky situation, and calling or folding could have been argued) but preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

REREAD THE PREFLOP ACTION

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

Nevermind...meaningless drivel because i was out of context

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

REREAD THE FORUM NAME

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

ooops switched forums and forgot

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

Ok, seriously. We've gotten responses in this thread that AJ doesn't play well OOP, that hero shouldn't minraise preflop, and then something about SNG strategy. What the [censored]? Are you people that bad at reading comprehension? How do you expect to make good decisions in the heat of battle if, having the time to read and think about your decisions, you can't even get the preflop action, position, or TYPE OF GAME right? [censored], you should be embarrassed! Don't post if you can't read.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I guess we're not all perfect like you....now get over yourself.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

I think reraising preflop is bad. BB obviously likes his hand and other than AT every other hand has us crushed so I think this is a fold.

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, seriously. We've gotten responses in this thread that AJ doesn't play well OOP, that hero shouldn't minraise preflop, and then something about SNG strategy. What the [censored]? Are you people that bad at reading comprehension? How do you expect to make good decisions in the heat of battle if, having the time to read and think about your decisions, you can't even get the preflop action, position, or TYPE OF GAME right? [censored], you should be embarrassed! Don't post if you can't read.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol. Considered me embarrased b/c my original response (to call on the flop) was assuming it was a limped pot. I later noticed it was min-raised PF. Given that, I would change my answer to fold on the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: The donk logic confuses me (Stuper hand)
 

Haven't read the rest of the thread but if the guy is a solid player this screams set or 5s to me. Community pot like this could bring flush draws and he wouldn't want them to draw cheap. Could be two pair who want doesn't want to get counterfeited also. This early in the tourney, the pot would be big enough for me to want to just take it down with a solid hand and make sure to make any draws pay to draw out. As for your play, it's har to contiue with the hand without a read or a plan. Much of a raise and you're committed and if you just call you have to be looking for something specific on the turn. If he bets out to any card on the turn you are in the same position again but for more of your stack. If the spade comes next and he checks to you are you going to represent the flush? Hard to do unless you know he is capable of laying down a hand in that situation. If you believe yourself to be the best player at the table, then forget about the 60 you invested and get his chips at a better time. My 2 cents, now I'll go back and read the thread.