K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

Villain is stat unknown to me at this time but seems to be playing a solid enough game. Is everyone c/f'ing the river or what? It's a dry flop so it's hard to imagine what he's calling with that I beat but if it is an underpair he's not going to bet it for me.

Ultimate Bet
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 5 folds, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 6.5BB

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

I complete PF only as long as the BB is passive. If he's more aggro, I'd most likely muck it.

I like B/Fing the river. If he had an A, I think you'd have heard about it by now, and you'd let him check behind with smaller PP's that he would have called with if you check.

If you check, I think you must fold if he bets and you leave yourself open to be bluffed, but if you bet, I doubt he'll bluff-raise you, and you can collect a river bet a lot of the time.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

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I complete PF only as long as the BB is passive. If he's more aggro, I'd most likely muck it.

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This is an interesting statement and something that I hadn't really considered in any depth until your post. Do you think an aggressive player expands his raising range in this situation or reduces it? What type of PFR %age would encourage you to muck here?

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
I complete PF only as long as the BB is passive. If he's more aggro, I'd most likely muck it.

I like B/Fing the river. If he had an A, I think you'd have heard about it by now, and you'd let him check behind with smaller PP's that he would have called with if you check.

If you check, I think you must fold if he bets and you leave yourself open to be bluffed, but if you bet, I doubt he'll bluff-raise you, and you can collect a river bet a lot of the time.

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the ideal opponent to play this hand is an ABC post flop player ...

with either a passive or aggressive player you'll never know 'where you are'

a passive player may just call down with top pair ....
an aggressive opponent can raise you with a much lighter holding ...

as in this situation (OP lost to a weak Ace - yes?)

you want to play this aggainst a passive player - but yet you hope the passive player will raise the turn when he hits and ace (not really too likely) ...

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

looks fine to me, fold to any turn or river aggression.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

I would go the B/F line. I might even go B/C if I thought BB was tricky, but usually not.

I don't see a reason to C/F the river. I even like C/R better than C/F, but I don't see myself checking here so I haven't thought it through.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

Posting blind: fold preflop.

Having read the post: oh, you didn't mention it was suited in your subject. With only one limper and no reads at a nearly full table, you should still fold, usually, but completing isn't the worst play as long as you don't go all Old Faithful postflop. (The whole "complete with any two suited in the SB" thing is way over-rated, especially in games where you expect your opponents to be at all better than complete suckery.)

I'd probably check the flop and see what happens. The pot is almost as small as it could possibly be and still see a flop, and if you get any action at all you've got kicker problems. Having led the flop and been called, I'd be fine with c/f'ing the turn.

As played, c/f'ing the river is out of the question. Bet/fold.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
Posting blind: fold preflop.

Having read the post: oh, you didn't mention it was suited in your subject. With only one limper and no reads at a nearly full table, you should still fold, usually, but completing isn't the worst play as long as you don't go all Old Faithful postflop. (The whole "complete with any two suited in the SB" thing is way over-rated, especially in games where you expect your opponents to be at all better than complete suckery.)

I'd probably check the flop and see what happens. The pot is almost as small as it could possibly be and still see a flop, and if you get any action at all you've got kicker problems. Having led the flop and been called, I'd be fine with c/f'ing the turn.

As played, c/f'ing the river is out of the question. Bet/fold.

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just a thought on this hand ...

the flop is very close to a 'steal flop' - if BB is slightly aggressive and the limper a slight call station (but will raise OK hands)

how about check raising the flop

if it gets checked through - who cares, it's a small pot and really only a couple of cards are of concern

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
how about check raising the flop

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This is certainly one of the possibilities encompassed by "check and see what happens." I'd likely c/r a bet from UTG+1, c/f to a bet and a call.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably check the flop and see what happens. The pot is almost as small as it could possibly be and still see a flop, and if you get any action at all you've got kicker problems. Having led the flop and been called, I'd be fine with c/f'ing the turn.

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I don't like "check-and-see" against 2 opponents, especially against BB's random hand. I'll lead out with a lot of things in a full ring game and go from there. (I lead out a little less in 6-max because I get called more often.)

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

BB has any 2 cards.

he has likely hit the flop.

there is a K a 6 and a 5 on the flop.

we have a K.

therefore he has the 6 or the 5.

bet the river..... if he raises i personally would call but the correct play to advocate would be to fold to the raise (yes im disclaimering my posts now lol)

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB has any 2 cards.

he has likely hit the flop.

there is a K a 6 and a 5 on the flop.

we have a K.

therefore he has the 6 or the 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also BB weighs the same as a duck.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB has any 2 cards.

he has likely hit the flop.

there is a K a 6 and a 5 on the flop.

we have a K.

therefore he has the 6 or the 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also BB weighs the same as a duck.

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And who are you that is so learned in the ways of science?

([img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Eeegah...I've missed you, bro.)

Aaron, I agree that wait-and-see sucks against 2 opponents except that the pot is too small to see without an electron microscope and we're OOP. I think you're actually more likely to be called here FR than 6max, because in 6max you'd likely have raised pf.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB has any 2 cards.

he has likely hit the flop.

there is a K a 6 and a 5 on the flop.

we have a K.

therefore he has the 6 or the 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also BB weighs the same as a duck.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://notnats.com/burn-the-witch.jpg

Burn him!

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB has any 2 cards.

he has likely hit the flop.

there is a K a 6 and a 5 on the flop.

we have a K.

therefore he has the 6 or the 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also BB weighs the same as a duck.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://notnats.com/burn-the-witch.jpg

Burn him!

[/ QUOTE ]

The PBS affiliate in LA has just started running 2-3 Flying Circus episodes a night...my Tivo overfloweth. Pure gold!

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total spew. There, I said it.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

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Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

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Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

I fold PF getting only 5:1.

As played, I bet the river, but c/c would not be the worst thing in the world if he is able to bet his 5s or 6s.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

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Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

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Wow. Can't wait to get a big hand against you.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

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Wow. Can't wait to get a big hand against you.

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And what's the alternative? Checking the flop with top freakin' pair with no evidence supporting that we might be beat? Checking the turn and allowing BB to take a free card if he needs it? Checking the river when it's more likely that BB has a lower pair than not?

Top pair versus BB's two worse-than-random cards is a GOOD THING.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

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Wow. Can't wait to get a big hand against you.

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I think what you may be forgetting is that we're up against BB here... who could have a random hand.

Against someone with a read, or a position other than BB, where we could assign some sort of range you may very well be right that betting down TPNK is spew.

But betting river with top pair in blind vs. blind where nobody has done any raising is pretty standard.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Can't wait to get a big hand against you.

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HU FOR ROLLZ

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Can't wait to get a big hand against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's say you have a monster hand: 55

What will you do when I bet?

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. Can't wait to get a big hand against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what's the alternative? Checking the flop with top freakin' pair with no evidence supporting that we might be beat? Checking the turn and allowing BB to take a free card if he needs it? Checking the river when it's more likely that BB has a lower pair than not?

Top pair versus BB's two worse-than-random cards is a GOOD THING.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, check the turn. Which free cards are we afraid of giving away?
And why does everybody assume BB is so crappy that he calls 2 streets, probably 3, with worse than top pair?

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

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Yeah, check the turn. Which free cards are we afraid of giving away?
And why does everybody assume BB is so crappy that he calls 2 streets, probably 3, with worse than top pair?

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You've never seen A6 call down? Or 88 that doesn't like to raise preflop?

Yes, reads matter here. If BB is a nit, you can check-fold the turn. But repeatedly failing to get value out your top pair hands in small pots is a leak that gets bigger as you try to move up.

Edit: If you find a player willing to fold top pair, go LAGtastic on him and profit.

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

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Yeah, check the turn. Which free cards are we afraid of giving away?
And why does everybody assume BB is so crappy that he calls 2 streets, probably 3, with worse than top pair?

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How about a 3,4,7,8, any heart (although unlikely)? What happens when he checks behind and one of these scare cards hits? Do you check again? What if he bets the turn? Do you fold?

If you are not willing to bet when you hit top pair in this situation, then you MUST fold pre-flop (I know this is not your hand, but you said nothing about PF play, so I assume that you think it is fine).

Re: K3-SB against BB + Limper
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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Bet/bet/bet line with TPNK = total value. There, I fyp.

[/ QUOTE ]

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Wow. Can't wait to get a big hand against you.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what's the alternative? Checking the flop with top freakin' pair with no evidence supporting that we might be beat? Checking the turn and allowing BB to take a free card if he needs it? Checking the river when it's more likely that BB has a lower pair than not?

Top pair versus BB's two worse-than-random cards is a GOOD THING.

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Yeah, check the turn. Which free cards are we afraid of giving away?
And why does everybody assume BB is so crappy that he calls 2 streets, probably 3, with worse than top pair?

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i call down with any 6/5/PP/straight draw.