No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

From Paul Wisickas Blog

terminator? I was chilling with my friend last night and the late night t.v. proved so horrific that it drove us to fire up a session. We didn’t want to do it. My friend had been running badly of late and I’d just flown into town, but at 2:00 a.m. in the suburbs, there aren’t many options.

My usual site was glitching something fierce so we sat at a few 10/20 games on a site I don’t frequent nearly as much. I enjoy playing the schoolyard bully online but I didn’t recognize anyone so we decided to keep it sane for a while. Within 10 minutes, I’d dropped a couple grand—all to this hyper aggressive guy sitting at all three of my tables.

The way to counter aggression is with aggression of your own. My friend and I began to really study this guy. Maniac played four hands out of every six. He bet every flop and called every continuation bet. He was a master at taking pots away. And he did everything ridiculously fast. Before I’d even determined where I was at on the flop, he’d have fired out a bet. If I bet preflop, he often immediately raised. If I ever checked, he bet. I got sick of being the one in tough situations and decided to put him in a few. I waited for hands and reraised him a few times. Each time, he folded immediately. Literally immediately. In hundreds of thousands of hands played on every respectable poker site, I’d never seen someone make every single decision this quickly; No thought involved. Was he that full of it? Did he truly have absolute garbage each time? Did he even have time to click ‘Fold to any bet?’ How could he make three tough decisions before I could even fold a 9, 2 offsuit? We finally had a few showdowns and after I saw his hands, I got it: Maniac was a bot.

Everyone knows he or she might be sitting across the cyber felt from a bot but it just doesn’t happen that often. If it has happened to me, it wasn’t nearly as obvious before. The sad thing? This bot was crushing. At all three of my tables, he was rocking twice the stack of anyone else. He was up at least $10k on these three tables alone.

People often ask me why I think I’ve been successful this quickly in poker, and I think one of them is my ability to adapt quickly to a situation. Honestly, aside from 25 minutes or so against Jamie Gold in the WSOP Main Event (and we all know how that went), I had virtually no heads up experience going in to the NBC Heads Up Championship.

As the session progressed, I studied the bot. I tried to play small-pot poker and whenever possible, I took it to a showdown. Before I knew it, the clock read 4:00 a.m. and the cashier had us in the black about $5,000. I’d love to say we took it all from the bot, but honestly, I think the bot gave us one third to one half.

Is this the future of online poker? Are the days of picking up easy money on Party Poker tables gone forever? Must I now battle bots, cyborgs, and heaven knows what else to be successful? So be it. Mr. Bot, I have one line for you, and it’s cheesy but it’s real—more real than you are:

“I’ll be back!”

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

The guy can write and bots will be bots.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

I think bots would be a welcome addition in most of my games

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

fastest person to make decisions I know of is elky....possibly could be

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

A coder smart enough to make a winning 10/20 nl bot is smart enough to give it random pauses, lol.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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I think bots would be a welcome addition in most of my games

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naivety meets arrogance.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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A coder smart enough to make a winning 10/20 nl bot is smart enough to give it random pauses, lol.

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my thoughts exactly

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

How bout the computer programs in the playstation poker games. There reasonably advanced, why couldnt a person make a bot out of one of those programs.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

A bot can be both advanced AND exploitable. Those video games are perfect examples. I think any player can beat them after a few hours. Also, I think Phil Laak went into detail on playing bots. Try googling it. An advanced bot has a more complex pattern of behavior and just takes longer to crack. Also, ALL bots must be aggressive by default if to have a positive expectation. Use that against them

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

Get a grip victor

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

I personally don't believe there is any bots playing 10/20 NL yet...

I'm really curious as to what site Paul was playing and the screen name of the opponent believed to be the bot.

I think we can make a better judgement from there.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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A coder smart enough to make a winning 10/20 nl bot is smart enough to give it random pauses, lol.

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apparently a coder smart enough to make winning 50/100 hu lhe is not tho lol.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

Victor bots can beat limit donks like u. Do not be so naive to think they can beat the best nl players

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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Victor bots can beat limit donks like u. Do not be so naive to think they can beat the best nl players

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id estimate they make at least 500$/hr.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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Victor bots can beat limit donks like u. Do not be so naive to think they can beat the best nl players

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if they're coded well i promise you they can.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

Be very interested in getting other expert opinions on this. Are bots already better than great nl players?

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

Dustin can outthink a computer. Didn't you guys know that?!

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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Are the days of picking up easy money on Party Poker tables gone forever?


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Is Paul Wasicka still playing on Party? How is he doing this?

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

wouldn't it be fairly easy to make a NL bot that short stacks and ratholes. It should be a winner and it's decision making would be pretty simple.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

Bots are terrifically exploitable if you know they're a bot. I loved the limit bots at UB. NL bots are a dream come true. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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Bots are terrifically exploitable if you know they're a bot. I loved the limit bots at UB. NL bots are a dream come true. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

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Only if you know there a bot and fugure them out. Without knowing it is a bot it is hard to figure out how they play. Im thinking limit only. Making a NL bot is about 1,000X harder. And also 1,000x harder to be not detected.

For example you could generate a random number for pauses and if you had a 50/50 situation a random number for call/fold. Also you could generate random numbers for bet sizes before the flop.

You can do a lot of things to very your play quite easily but it requires a lot more coding than limit. If paul waskia is right that this was a bot, and I suspect he wasn't than the person implementing it was probebley a script kiddie and stole a primitive bot and has no idea how it works.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

You don't have to know that it is a bot to exploit its tendencies.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

restrict is correct.

dire is quite wrong. there are plenty of bots on ub right now if you care to play them. they play 50/100 hu and win lots. im sure they are beatable but given their track record you must be very good. ive never bothered to make a concerted effort to beat them as i suck at hu and dont like swinging 10k every day.

i would imagine mcot is right about nl bots at higher stakes. however, and my nl experience and knowledge is quite limited, im very sure i could make a bot to beat low stakes nl. if it shortstacks that would proly be easier.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

kurosh empty your PM box please and PM me when you've done so. Need to ask you something kinda important. Thanks.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

if you were to build a bot who can beat NL games, why would you put it up against the likes of Paul W. when the obvious +EV strategy would be against the regular Stars fish at lower limits?

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

I doubt there are bots that could win at 5/10 NL and up.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

Phil Laak talks about it here: http://www.bluffmagazine.com/magazine/2006_07_119.asp
I tried the program in question for limit HE, it's REALLY good adapting to you. Right now I'm trying to win playing he limit HU tournament since it seems to be the only thing i'm good at online. This morning I played a weird guy.

5/6 seconds between EVERY decision, doesn't talk at all make the same play everytime time (like if he was bluffing at a pot he would bet, I would call then he would check and I would bet and then he folded, everyime the same, I got away with a lot of stealing when noticing that, anyone would know that there noway I had something everythimes).
I won at the end but I had the hardest time, it went on for like more than half an hour whereas most of the time it ends in 10 minutes or less.

It was a 5$ HU limit. Then I did a research on his name and he had just started playing a 100$ HU nolimit HE tournament. The guy talked to him a couple of times, no answer. He won at the end. Very weird, is there a program that would come with the bot that would just join any HU game with someone on?

Why would anyone who has the bankroll to play HU for 100$ would play HU for 5$ ?? If it's the kind of bots that's adapting to you like the one in poker academy, It's going to be way hard for me to win anything HU. In fact the whole situation reminded me a lot of when I played the vexbot (that how it's called in the program).

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

What is this magical human ability that is outside the reach of a bot?
Other than interpreting chat to get a clue when an opp is on tilt, I can't think of a single bit of data any human is using for online poker that a bot could not duplicate.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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What is this magical human ability that is outside the reach of a bot?
Other than interpreting chat to get a clue when an opp is on tilt, I can't think of a single bit of data any human is using for online poker that a bot could not duplicate.

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There are pieces of information that have much more significance than can be statistically assigned, like from seeing just one hand a regular opponent plays badly or unusually compared to normal you can learn something about them or what mood they are in, etc. Also things like unrealistic preflop aggression in specific types of situations, unrealistic frequency of flop calling on specific types of flops, adjusting to opponents' adjustments, etc.

Is a bot really going to be able to go "hmm my opponent played that hand unusually aggressively, I will expect more of the same from him this session"? And then a few minutes later when it becomes clear that opponent is now folding instead in marginal spots because he is aware of his image, that now we should start being *more* scared of that player's short term future aggression because they know we know they look like a maniac at the table? Also, timing tells, and so on...

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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A bot can be both advanced AND exploitable. Those video games are perfect examples. I think any player can beat them after a few hours. Also, I think Phil Laak went into detail on playing bots. Try googling it. An advanced bot has a more complex pattern of behavior and just takes longer to crack. Also, ALL bots must be aggressive by default if to have a positive expectation. Use that against them

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SALAZARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

You could have a bot linked to a persond PT stats and play accordingly

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

I HATE BOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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fastest person to make decisions I know of is elky....possibly could be

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wouldn't surprise me, dude is obviously a nutso computer tech freak. i mean, you have to have some serious computer skills when your the world's best Warcraft player.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

havent red the thread but its likely his connection was delayed, which made it seem like villian was acting instantly. i get this sometimes on slow connections. regardless, i find it unlikely it was a bot.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

The first bots that beat these games will not play super-LAG. They will be like 15/13 TAG.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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The first bots that beat these games will not play super-LAG. They will be like 15/13 TAG.

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that's what i thought too, i mean making a bot that plays NL is one thing, a winner at NL another, being able to play super lag and beat up 10/20nl r just different levels

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

surely a winning bot at nl would play classic tag just sitting there and playing premium hands,playing position and set mining all day and night i dont think a winning lagbot could be made

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

"Maniac played four hands out of every six."

Lols. Paul can't beat a lagtard maniac, so he thinks it's a bot. Lawl.

Re: No Limit Bots ? Kwickfish says yes.
 

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Is a bot really going to be able to go "hmm my opponent played that hand unusually aggressively,

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Yes. And the bot can do it a 1000 times (to the 10th) better than you.

You know all those PT stats (that are way too numerous and time consuming for us to use to their fullest benefit when making a decison)?

Well a good bot can actualy use and analyze those (all of them, not just the few that you may use) in real time. You can't.

A bot can pull up and review every instance of a person's play and use that information in real time. Flawlessly (no memory bias). You can't.

A bot always plays it's A game.

A bot could beat the best players in the world. In fact it could crush them. Just because of the advantages mentioned.

I really hope that, at some point, the sites are willing and able to combat and eliminate this threat.