KQ Valuetown?
 

villain is properly aggressive, decent TAG i'd say. could be 3ballin light


Poker Stars
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $10/$20
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4.25BB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">BB bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, BB calls.

River: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players)
BB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Results:
Final pot: 10.25BB


standard?

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

Is this turn play really standard?

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

IDK i think value bets kinda thin but im sure others won't. You get payed off by jq, 9T, jj kinda thin range but who knows.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

river bet looks very thin, flop call really depends on your read.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

Bet [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

Standard = flop fold for me. And I get 3 bet a lot by blinds. I just feel this is the worst flop and we have the wrong hand to make a stand.

-DeathDonkey

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

Standard? If that is standard you mind showing me a hand where you get out of line? I would check the river and expect to be beat.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Standard = flop fold for me. And I get 3 bet a lot by blinds. I just feel this is the worst flop and we have the wrong hand to make a stand.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

id fold the flop, fold the turn, and check the river

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

is calling down with the nut nonpair hand here with KQ that much different than calling down on another board with AK?

My thought process was calling on the flop w/ nut highcards. turn brought a ten, figured I'd raise for a free showdown w/it to see if my KQ is good and possibly to fold out 66 or something with the ace and ten out there. then on the river i thought i had a thin +EV valuebet from any nonace which he will have here a good portion of the time.

is this awful thinking?

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
is calling down with the nut nonpair hand here with KQ that much different than calling down on another board with AK?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course it is. He 3-bet you preflop, and an ace is on the board.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

people as of late i have found are starting to reraise lighter than normal, especially if i've been raising liberally. i'm seeing the 3bet pot as more of a reason to call down (big pot) than the ace being on board.

imo he can easily have QJs or JTs here as well.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
people as of late i have found are starting to reraise lighter than normal, especially if i've been raising liberally. i'm seeing the 3bet pot as more of a reason to call down (big pot) than the ace being on board.

imo he can easily have QJs or JTs here as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, but aces are in his 3-bet range as well. Certainly you can see the difference between calling this down and calling down AK on a 952 board.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

i guess i might just be results oriented with thinking i play good, as villain had KhTh here and MHWG.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

I didnt realize this thread was about your whole play being standard thought it was about the river bet. I will very occasionally make a move like this hooping for some fold equity and mostly metagame principle but calling down/raising turn should not be your standard play on A high flop here.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

I think the turn is a fold, but if raised i would bet the river

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guess i might just be results oriented with thinking i play good, as villain had KhTh here and MHWG.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL do you really want to be results oriented here? In other words, he made both a good lead bet on the turn and a call of your raise given that he had the best hand, and you sucked out on the river?

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

if you want to play that game then what was he doing preflop with his 3bet OOP with a dominated hand that happened to suck out on my KQ on the turn?

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
id fold the flop, fold the turn, and check the river

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. I would do that as well as almost anything else llama says. Then again, I am a llama groupie.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Standard = flop fold for me. And I get 3 bet a lot by blinds. I just feel this is the worst flop and we have the wrong hand to make a stand.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

deathdonker is nailing every post in this forum, his other one was spot on also. I think this flop is an easy fold, K or Q may not be good and get us in deeper and so we can only count 4 outs for sure to win this pot, as played a turn fold should come here, a reraise prolly wont push him out here with the pot size. The river bet is real thin as played, i check being real happy it didnt cost me even more with my pair of queens.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

you are being very results oriented here, what is your sn? i would love to sit with you.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i guess i might just be results oriented with thinking i play good, as villain had KhTh here and MHWG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow. How can you think you played the hand well if he looked you up with KThh here? Doesn't that make your turn raise like, really bad?

As is the river plays itself and you have to bet. But basically you sucked out and won.

His river call sucks too. Time to adjust your read.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

what i was trying to say is had the turn been a 9 and he didn't outdraw, my turn raise would have been expert.

i guess i shouldn't stand so strong in these thin spots though.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

you would have raised a 9 turn? I thought you raised the turn because it was a ten. Raising a 9 puts you in a spot where you are putting in bets while drawing dead.

We also don't know if he bets that turn (9). Given he did fire 2 streets when he made 2nd pair we do know this guy is aggro and it's going to be expensive to bluff him but profitable to value bet and raise on big streets. So I think this approach is really bad in this spot vs. this player.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

What is your Went to SD number 55%? This is a play I would only make if I felt I was getting run over and since he called your turn check-raise how can you expect to not be shown an ace here? This whole hand makes me want to puke.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

yeah i tought you raised that Turn becuase of it was a T..why would we raise a 9? I think you need a better read to pull this off. I guess you had none, so this play seems very spewy for me...if i would have been BB id would have had you beat for sure unless id have JJ.

This board is really so ugly for you after you get 3bet from the BB

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

this got me htinking that i really call down too much. my went to SD% is about 40 for 6max how bad is that and what should it be at?

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

yeah that really is too much and maybe you found a big leak in your game to fix, im pretty sure though

this is from mr wookies 6 max stats FAQ

[ QUOTE ]
Went to showdown: Marginal hands will tend to have more value when there are fewer players involved. Expect to show down more hands. A value of about 32 is probably about as low as is reasonable, and 40%-ish is about the ceiling. Typical values are 35-38%. As you add hands, this may decrease slightly, but if you're only adding hands that you end up folding before showdown, it's time to rethink about adding those hands. Also, if you play aggressively enough (and/or against tight enough opponents) that many hands don't make it to showdown, this will tend to decrease.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

Mine is like 40 too, its not so bad but this is still a bad spot.

-DeathDonkey

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

the 4 biggest winners in my games go to sd 48% of the time.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

well kind of depends what gamesy yoo play how high your WTS is but 48% wow...that surpises me more then dd having 40% also...think mr wookie must write this FAQ new(-:

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
this got me htinking that i really call down too much. my went to SD% is about 40 for 6max how bad is that and what should it be at?

[/ QUOTE ]

Any stat looked at in isolation is really hard to comment on (heck, you could say that about general stats in the absence of any post-flop play characteristics). My WTSD has been 40 or north of there for some time, though. But in this particular hand I'd almost never see the turn.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

yeah, i guess 40 is very relative to vpip and other stats. my vpip/pfr is 31/22 fwiw is 40 too out of line then?

id say its a big leak in my game how much i am calling down. i feel like im putting everyone on a bluff constantly.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
well kind of depends what gamesy yoo play how high your WTS is but 48% wow...that surpises me more then dd having 40% also...think mr wookie must write this FAQ new(-:

[/ QUOTE ]

Wookie's stats FAQ isn't meant to apply to mid-high stakes. Also 48% filtered for 5-6 handed is pretty insane, but if you're playing a lot of 2-3 handed though, it's not that surprising.

Re: KQ Valuetown?
 

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, i guess 40 is very relative to vpip and other stats. my vpip/pfr is 31/22 fwiw is 40 too out of line then?

id say its a big leak in my game how much i am calling down. i feel like im putting everyone on a bluff constantly.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't conclude that a 40 VPIP with your pre-flop stats (or others' pre-flop stats) is a big leak. A lot of the "getting to showdown" numbers will depend on a variety of factors largely divorced of pre-flop stats. If you're concerned about your WTSD stat and what it might mean about your post-flop play, I'd spend a lot of time reviewing hands where you saw the river (both SD and folded on river) and evaluate your decision-making in light of your equity against villain's range of hands -- using an equity tool for a while in a rigorous approach can yield some surprising insights into your own application (or misapplication) of equity estimates given a variety of flop textures. Do this for a while and adjust (if necessary) your early decisions (flop and turn) and then start doing it pretty frequently right after a session -- I always found I could justify to myself (open issue whether I could justify to anyone else!) certain plays given the fresh memory of the flow / tempo / image of the game on hands that, when reviewed weeks later I might say "why did I do this?"