(22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

PartyPoker, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t805)
UTG+1 (t840)
Hero (t760)
MP2 (t1060)
MP3 (t920)
CO (t910)
Button (t540)
SB (t1495)
BB (t670)

Preflop: Hero is in MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="red">UTG raises t95</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises t760 (All-in)</font>, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, <font color="gray">MP3 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>, UTG calls t665

How do you play this situation here? A reraise less than all in will commit me to the pot anyways, and I really dont want to call with my position. Is it to weak to fold here?

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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Is it to weak to fold here?

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I'll answer your question with a question.

In a sit-n-go, where does your edge(s) come from? If you name more than one, rate them in order.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

FE late in tourny.

Better hand selection early.

Theres more, but these are the basics I think your getting at.

I assume you are advocating a fold?

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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I assume you are advocating a fold?

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I am advocating neither fold, call, or push. I am just helping you think about the things that are important when considering the question you posed.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

What's wrong with calling here? You have position on the raiser. I realize that it sucks if anyone re-raises, but I'd rather fold than push here. I can't see anything you're beating calling your push, except the occasional AQ.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

In my experience at the 22's if I call here I most likey will no be haeads up and will have to play out of position.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

sounds too phylisophical/educational for me [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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In my experience at the 22's if I call here I most likey will no be haeads up and will have to play out of position.

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I think ur sample size is small. There are many things to think about with this hand, perhaps one of the more important ones is, will you get paid off if you hit TPTK when you are ahead?

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

I'm not too concerned about position here, since I have it on the raiser, and am probably pushing any A/K-high flop regardless. The multiple opponent thing is admittedly a concern, but I'd rather take the chance of a dominated hand tagging along and then having a flop hit us both than hope UTG doesn't call and have us beat or crushed.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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and am probably pushing any A/K-high flop regardless.

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Why?

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

Although it would be nice to have position on everyone in the hand, AK plays all right OOP. Also, you have position on the UTG raiser. Plus, at most tables the UTG's raise will only be called by 1 more person after you anyway. 1/3 of the time you will flop the likely best hand and you can play it accordingly. If someone pushes after you call, and the UTG calls, you can probably fold knowing you are at best a coinflip and at worst against AA or KK. I would call and play poker here. Don't get too excited about AK early in an SnG. It's a strong hand, but I am rarely happy getting it allin preflop when the blinds are so low.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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If someone pushes after you call, and the UTG calls, you can probably fold knowing you are at best a coinflip and at worst against AA or KK.

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How would you play if utg folds?

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

I think it would depend on reads. If the reraiser had either a.) accumulated a large stack early through very aggressive play or b.) had donked off lots of chips and pushed a small stack from the blinds or c.) seemed like an idiot, I would probably call, knowing I will be against a smaller ace or garbage a decent amount of the time. If it was someone who hadn't played many/any hands, or was a multi-tabler, or was a regular, and I hadn't done anything blatantly stupid, I would probably fold. I'm not sure how relevant this question is to the 22s, however, which in my experience don't have that much raising/reraising of a UTG raiser at an early level.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

I have played just over 1k of 22's and I say their is another caller a majority of the time.

About getting paid off I dont know. If he has kings will he fold on an ace flop? I my experience it can go both ways so I'm not quite sure what your getting at.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

Hopefully scuba chuck will enlighten us further because I struggle with these too.

I think pushing is your worst decision here. You are going to see coin flips and AA, KK way more than AQ and maybe AJ.

If your horrible at post flop poker go ahead and fold. Like scuba hinted at, you have time and can implement your advantages later.

I like the fold but I still have a leaky game so who knows.

HC

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

If you want to increase your profits you must learn to play post flop poker. So you can just call here and see a flop. You can also reraise less than all in without pot commiting yourself although I wouldn't do that myself. Reraising all in isnt bad per say it just isnt maximizing your profits. You will get called by Ax often enough to show a profit though.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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If you want to increase your profits you must learn to play post flop poker.

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while this is obviously true in the abstract, i am not sure if it applies to this situation.

here, assume hero calls and everyone else folds (best possible situation). there's now a little under 250 in the pot and hero has ~650 behind. how much post flop poker can be played here? two bets, tops?

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

The more I think about it the more I think pushing might be a better play here.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

Absent a read on the raiser, I fold here.

In the 22s, there are so many spots where you can pwn your opponents, it just isn't necessary to put yourself into harm's way like this.

Unless he's raising with AQ or worse, I don't think you get paid off enough when you do hit TP to make calling a good option.

And again, unless he's raising a worse ace, I don't want to race against bad opponents w/o any real dead money as overlay.

Of course, there's always a chance (I'd say 10%) that a push can force a fold.

Overall, I know that Scuba Chuck will call me weak tight (we've been down this road before in very similar posts as a matter of fact!), but against an unknown opponent, I just fold here.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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Absent a read on the raiser, I fold here.


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edit: and everything else 45suited said [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

I play 10+1, so someone strike me down if I'm out of line.

I dont see how folding here is an option. I'm sure the range is much bigger than some have posted here because you're forgetting all the idiots that do things for NO LOGICAL reason.

I think A10+, KJ+, 77+ isn't too unreasonable. I'm sure a few idiots are raising Ax suited to narrow the field...etc.

You gain an edge by picking up pots uncontested, or getting money in with the best hand. I think pushing gives you the best of it.

As for running into KK or AA (newb point of view), but I dont think your losing any money. Cuz the nx time you have AA or KK, someone else will pay you off with AK.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

I think you lose a ton of value from weaker aces by folding AK here. I would say the vast majority of the 22ers are raising AJ and AQ UTG here, and they will not go gently if they flop an ace. I think the implied pot odds of calling with AK here are similar to those of calling with a middle pocket pair for set value -- if you flop an ace, you will usually get the raiser's stack if they have AQ or AJ. Maybe this is a difference between 1500 starting stacks I play with and party's 800, but I think folding is losing value either way.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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I think the implied pot odds of calling with AK here are similar to those of calling with a middle pocket pair for set value

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Are you calling off 95 chips (1/8th of your stack) pre-flop with a pair of 7s here? I'm not saying that calling is 'wrong' per se, only that I would not do it. If you just have some patience in these games, the easy +EV spots pop up in almost every game.

So, what's your plan if:

1) There is another caller and you miss the flop?

2) You are the only caller, you miss the flop, and the inital raiser bets into you? Position is nice, but don't forget, if he has AJ or AQ as you'd like to hope, he gets first shot at bluffing at the pot.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

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Hopefully scuba chuck will enlighten us further because I struggle with these too.

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There's no answer, thus nothing to explain.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

If you miss the flop you can check/fold, same as with the 7s. You only have to double up once in awhile for the call to be +EV. As you flop TPTK 1/3 times, and you put around 90 in preflop, all you have to win is on average 180 when you flop TPTK. If there is another caller, your pot odds increase. I think you can expect to win at least that much that often (even when you factor in the times when you slam into AA, KK or a set).

Also, is your position that much different with 7/8ths of your former stack? Finally, if you won't call with AK here, and you won't call with any pocket pairs, are you only playing AA, KK and QQ before the blinds become significant? What about the majority of tourneys when you don't get any of those hands? Is your late game skill really that much better than the rest of the 22ers that you can camp on completely simple situations presented by monster hole cards until the blinds get to be 1/10th of your stack? I think you have to open up your game a little more than this to get full value from the 22s. At least I do. Maybe I'm not as good at late game as you guys and I have to compensate by playing slightly more hands early on.... Don't know. Interesting discussion, though.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

I agree with you here. Folding AK here is passing up way too much. I've always played it so I've had much experience. Overall i'd say it was worth it. I mean if you always fold here you'll never even know that your passing up +EV opportunites. Especially at the 22's where they wont fold if they have any Ax. Most of them will pay off with PP also. They just play too donkishly for me to fold here.

Re: (22) AK vs UTG raiser
 

Now, keeping in mind that I'm not saying that calling is 'wrong', only that I would not call:

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Also, is your position that much different with 7/8ths of your former stack?

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Yes, it is. Significantly. After taking the blinds (assuming they don't increase before we take them) we will be down to just over t600. And when I double up later (as I will need to at some point), it won't be a 95 chip difference, it will be a 190 chip difference.

Also, your FE could be hurt significantly, which could be the difference between stealing blinds and busting out.

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Finally, if you won't call with AK here, and you won't call with any pocket pairs, are you only playing AA, KK and QQ before the blinds become significant?

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Come on now. I play plenty of hands early, just not vs 3XBB UTG raises (amounting to 1/8th of my stack) from unknown players. Gap Concept.