Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

Here is something interesting I read in Small Stakes Hold'em about a week ago. It gets me thinking that there is no point in playing low or micro limit hold'em online anymore. On page 48, under the heading "bad hands and dead money", it states this:

"If your opponents limited themselves only to those hands that are profitable, most pots would be contested heads up or 3-handed."

This is precisely the case at sites like Full Tilt and Ultimate Bet. It seems like there is no point in playing at all. It seems as though you win and lose based on luck, since most players are playing by small stakes hold'em. I really don't know how anyone can argue with me. These games are simply not profitable anymore.

Your thoughts?

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

You're right it is not worth playing micro-limit HE online.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

What is your time worth? I think you already know the answer.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

If you enjoy it, yes. If you don't, no.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

Small Stakes Hold 'em is not the apex of poker theory.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

Well, yeah, so they play ok preflop. That's great. I haven't read SSHE in a while, but I believe it also says that after the flop is when the real money is won and lost in Texas Hold'em. Even at tough site like Full Tilt, the microlimit and small stakes players suck after the flop. A good player can easily profit from the other player's poor post flop play. Playing well pre-flop will not make you a winner at TX HE. Regardless, if the micro games at Full Tilt are are too tough for you, then consider these two options:
1. Get better at post flop play, and you can crush these games.
or
2. Find a softer site. I don't play at full tilt myself....been there, done that. There are too many sites out there where the players don't have a clue. It's almost like it's not real money at these stakes at some sites. Personally, I'm not going to learn to beat the full tilt guys when the other sites offer such soft games. That's my solution, and it works for me. Game selection is everything. If the games are not good at FT, then find a site where they are good. It's not that hard. I found one, but I suspect there are quite a few others. FWIW, I can beat the FT games, but the site I am playing now is just stupidly beatable. It's like the other players are rich philanthropists, and I'm their favorite charity. I had a guy push a 100BB stack pre flop w AQo yesterday in a full ring game. I had AA and instacalled. The guys I play with can't even play decent pre flop poker...and they are completely retarded after the flop comes out.

So move the hell off of full tilt if you have trouble beating the game. When I played there, I couldn't believe how much thought some of these 25NL players had put into their game. I had to find a site where people just came to gamble and play jerk off poker...so I tried some other sites and found they were much softer.

Also, if you are playing limit...consider making the move to NL. Good post flop strategy in No Limit will get more money with less risk...another way to look at it is that your advantage as a skilled player is higher at an NL game. Micro stakes No limit games at other sites are juicy as hell. I don't play limit anymore, so I don't really know what's up with that.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

From a $/hr perspective, no. From an entertainment perspective, perhaps. If you're question is really, "Can I win money playing micro-limit HE online?," Then the answer is yes. The actual amount of money you win will be small, but your bb/100 hands should actually be pretty good (albeit with a very high variance) if you can play well. You just have to realize that playing well here will be completely different than playing well at a 5/10 game, or even a 2/4 game. It will never make you much money because of the low stakes involved, but there's no reason you can't stay above even.

For me, the amounts of money are so infintesimally small that I don't really enjoy it (unless I just need to piss off 5 bucks because I'm angry). However, there are plenty of posters here who would say the same thing about the $10 tournies and occasional 1/2 games that I play, so it's all in your perspective.

Will

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

superpokermon: care to gives us a hint which site this is? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

here's my case..

I deposited $500 to Paradise a few years back. I ended up withdrawing $6000 about a month later, after I got canned at my job, and I had to cover an assload of emergency expenses.

I started playing freerolls at Absolute and Everest, and graduated shortly into cash games and bigger tournaments. I made my first reasonable balance, on Everest, back about the beginning of last year.

I then proceeded to keep myself alive, although I haven't paid any of my previous debts off yet, through October, with Everest, playing up to $0.50/$1 NL and tournaments up to $20, sometimes a $50 here or there.

In October, Everest closed to US players, and I've now moved over to Cake, and starting with a few freerolls there, i'm sitting with a small balance, and have withdrawn to cover my bills the last few months.

I'd say it can be worth it. I'm living in a rent free situation right now, but I've still got lots of stuff that I have to cover, and have been doing so. Now, I'm employed again, so hopefully I'll be able to move up and off the $100NL [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

It's not worth playing anything at Full Tilt.

As for micro-limits, I turned the $25 I had on PokerStars into almost $300 playing limit & NL, so yes it was worth it. I should be bankrolled in a couple of weeks for higher games.I really didn't want to go through the hassle of mailing money, because I suspected the games had gotten tougher. I don't expect to make the money I used to, not for a while.

I see the low stakes games have become tougher. Limit is not worth playing at low stakes, but NL is.

There is only so much improvement you can do. You only make money because others make more mistakes. In NL you can irritate them into making mistakes, limit has fewer options.

So for me it was worth it.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

I also don't play much at FTP. I wouldn't say that you can't make money there, but it'll be a long wait for the right cards at the right time. Other sites are much juicier. FTP and PS is full of hudbots. IMO, that's taken much of the fun out of playing online.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, yeah, so they play ok preflop. That's great. I haven't read SSHE in a while, but I believe it also says that after the flop is when the real money is won and lost in Texas Hold'em. Even at tough site like Full Tilt, the microlimit and small stakes players suck after the flop. A good player can easily profit from the other player's poor post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]
If they aren't entering the pot with J2o anymore then there is much less scope for them to make huge costly postflop mistakes and for you to profit significantly.

If 4BB/100 was possible for good players back in the days of 7 to the flop and 15BB pots, then I guess now an excellent player might just be able to eak out a slightly +ve BB/100 while paying about 2-3BB/100 in rake by outplaying rocks postflop at F/R LHE.

Alternatively you can play micro-limit 6max where their might be more fish potential, but ultimately you just end up paying 4-5BB/100 in rake and that soon kills of the extra winrate.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

I pretty much got the replies I was expecting. The profitablity of the games goes WAY down when there are 2-3 to the flop vs. 5-6 or so.

One reason I posted this is because I just came back from playing some juicy $2-4 live. This was the first time playing in live in a casino since reading small stakes HE. The cards ran very cold towards the end of my last session and got a few beats put on me and still finished about 18-20bb up.
After comming back home and playing some micro-limit, it was a shock to me how different the games were. Pretty much like night and day.
I do agree that NL allows others to make MORE COSTLY mistakes, which allows you to make more money, so I might consider the switch.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

I think that learning a very basic strategy for how not to be a big loser at limit is pretty easy and more and more people are able to do it now. Of course you can adapt and become an insane LAG if you want to, but as jukofyork said, "If they aren't entering the pot with J2o anymore then there is much less scope for them to make huge costly postflop mistakes...."

As someone who played almost exclusively limit for 2006, and has switched to almost exclusively nl for 2007, I can say that it is MUCH harder to become a 'decent' nl player, and the games are much much better.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

Just because 3 people are in the pot on every hand doesn't mean the table isn't good.

Not super-duper juicy. But to just think that all the players are roughly of equal skill and are just passing pots back and forth because they all do the same thing is REALLY incorrect.
There are lots of mediocre to not-complete-horrible limit players online. There really aren't many who I would descirbe as 'pretty good'. And even fewer who are even sharper than that.

Seriously, there are so many post-flop decisions to be made and SO many of them are NOT automatic.
If you aren't seeing SEVERAL mistakes in just one orbit at almost any table (iffy call-downs or semi-bluffs, checking-through when there was clear value in a river-bet, etc) then you just aren't looking hard enough...or, more likely, you just don't know what to look for.

The games are incredibly beatable.

Many tables with averages of 22/10 or something will still have a couple players who are in the 14/4 range which is extremely exploitable as well as some 33/8's who make lousy post-flop mistakes.


This isn't to say that NL isn't 'better' or 'more profitable' or whatever.
Just arguing against the notion that all these limit players are pretty much playing the same game and are therefore mostly unbeatable against each other.

Want to beat these games? Get better (and run hot too, that always helps).

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

micro-limit is a low risk way to build a bankroll. If you are willing to put in the time and effort, it is more than worth it IMO.

It also teaches you to deal with all the retarded things that happen when everybody is in the pot. Not sure what site you're playing, but it seems to be as full of bad players as I can remember at stars.

If you are going to be playing 2/4 live alot, you'll need to be numb to getting sucked out on. That or you'll just whine alot when it happens. I've played in live 10/20 games full of players just ast bad as .05/.10 fullring on stars.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

I forgot to mention all the pre-flop late-position open-limpers and all the pre-flop cold-callers, even from the small-blind.

I can barely EVER find a 4 or 5 handed table that doesn't have at least 1 player still open-limping from any of the non-blind positions....or routinely cold-calls in the small-blind against a button steal-raise.

Now some players might be good enough to get away with plays like this.
But it's my opinion that for most of the shmoe's playing these games they just are being too passive.

Huge oportunities that they are practically begging for you to get into the pot in the first place.

These are just SOME of the errors I routinely see on almost every table.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

In addition to the points MicroBob made, I still see some incredibly bad hand selection. Sometimes it is even from a player with a reasonable VPIP.

If it happens once, it might be a misclick. When it happens more than that....all I can say is the cards must be running very cold for them to have a fairly low VPIP with the hands they are showing down.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

LHE is still alive and well. For every one solid player (and by solid I mean not borderline retarded), their are 2-3 donkeys, and that is profitable enough for me to still crush low limit games.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So move the hell off of full tilt if you have trouble beating the game. When I played there, I couldn't believe how much thought some of these 25NL players had put into their game. I had to find a site where people just came to gamble and play jerk off poker...so I tried some other sites and found they were much softer.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is amazing how true this is. On another site I crush the $25 and $50 NL games. On Full Tilt, I find the $10 NL games much more challenging than the $50 NL on my primary site. It is sick.

However, I am starting to migrate my action to Omaha and Omaha/8 because that seems way more beatable on Tilt.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:
So move the hell off of full tilt if you have trouble beating the game. When I played there, I couldn't believe how much thought some of these 25NL players had put into their game. I had to find a site where people just came to gamble and play jerk off poker...so I tried some other sites and found they were much softer.



It is amazing how true this is. On another site I crush the $25 and $50 NL games. On Full Tilt, I find the $10 NL games much more challenging than the $50 NL on my primary site. It is sick.

However, I am starting to migrate my action to Omaha and Omaha/8 because that seems way more beatable on Tilt.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, when I gave up on Full Tilt 25NL, I went straight to 50NL at another site. Life suddenly got better.

But Full Tilt is def a great place to play Omaha...I imagine all the non TX Hold'em games are probably good on Tilt.

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

LOL [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] You gotta love people here who go, "Tilt sucks; rock garden; hudbots; yadda yadda" and then go on to say that they went somewhere much fishier BUT WON'T SAY WHERE!!! (Not that I would either. LOL)

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

Many sites are a fish fest at these amounts. You right if 10NL or 25NL play tight don't bother to play beyond learning reasons as the games will be like licking 1000 envelopes..... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

i don't play lhe and i don't play fr, but making a profit at any micro level of 6max nl is pretty ez

i played a few k hands of 10nl recently and found it to be fun and loose

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

Haven't played those specific games...but I am 100% convinced there is no way the NL25 games on Full Tilt are really very tough at all.

Certainly there can be better games at NL25 or NL50 on other sites.
But if you can't beat NL25 on ANY site what does that say about your game?

Re: Is it even worth playinig micro-limit HE online?
 

They probably aren't tough but if nobody chases they can still be a waste of time. Party 25NL was great now it sucks because they created 10NL and 5NL. Most of the live ones are playing that now....