Beatable Game??
 

$8/$16 game. with a $6 total rake. $4 rake + $1 for bad beat + $1 dealer tip. My question is....is this game still beatable? Because of the high rake...I look for games with 4 players + . Will that make this game beatable?
is there a formula for a beatable game??
please help...ty...

Re: Beatable Game??
 

Yes, its beatable, if you are better than the players in the game. If they are averaging 4 to the flop, it usually is very beatable. If the table is averaging 2.5 to the flop when there is one, and there are 8.5 or more Old White Guys on the table, you might want to find a different game.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

its beatable if there are at least 2 asians at the table.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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its beatable if there are at least 2 asians at the table.

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QFT

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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$8/$16 game. with a $6 total rake. $4 rake + $1 for bad beat + $1 dealer tip. My question is....is this game still beatable? Because of the high rake...I look for games with 4 players + . Will that make this game beatable?

is there a formula for a beatable game??
please help...ty...

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Its beatable, but that game is very swingy and this magnified by the fact that you have to beat the rake. Make sure to have a large roll and try not to steam. That is the wildest game I have ever played in regularly and you will regularly take beats you never thought possible and will run bad for extended periods.

Also read this thread:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post9445602

Re: Beatable Game??
 

TY..for the replys...they help.
But I am also wondering if anyone knows of a "formula" for figuring out if ANY game is beatable. fro example at some point the rake is just too high to overcome. how does one firgure out that point? at 35 hands an hour...an estimated average of $180 is leaving the game. thats $20 per player (9 handed). so if you play even...your a damn good player (you are +$20 a hour). this being said....its obvious you need some very bad players in the game to make it a long run plus ev. any more ideas?

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
TY..for the replys...they help.
But I am also wondering if anyone knows of a "formula" for figuring out if ANY game is beatable. fro example at some point the rake is just too high to overcome. how does one firgure out that point? at 35 hands an hour...an estimated average of $180 is leaving the game. thats $20 per player (9 handed). so if you play even...your a damn good player (you are +$20 a hour). this being said....its obvious you need some very bad players in the game to make it a long run plus ev. any more ideas?

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The optimal strategy is playing fewer pots. Play tight and try to win big pots. But beating the rake depends on your win rate, which depends on how well you play against bad and good players and ability to adjust to changing game conditions.

They don't rake every pot 6$ do they, isn't it liek 10% 6 max, is there a rake if there is no flop?

Keep track of your sessions on your cell phone, then run the numbers in Excel take your total winnings / total hours.

btw, this rake seems standard if not 1$ more than most places.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

$8/$16 with a $4+$2 rake.....is perhaps beatable for $5 a hour....if the players are bad. (perhaps true)
I will try some numbers...see if you agree.
A good tight player plays 20% of his starting hands.
A normal dealer deals 35 hands and hour.
The good player is seeing the flop 7 times an hour.
he hits the flop 1/3 times. so he is winning MAYBE 2 hands an hour.
he is paying 3.5 times the blinds to play ($6 x3.5=$21)
the good player must make up $21 per hour (blinds) plus two rakes of $12....or $33 in two hands per hour to break even. so he needs a profit of $16.50 per hand (he wins) to break even.
thats one big bet. so ..
YOU NEED MISTAKES (by the other players) THAT TOTAL ATLEAST ONE BIG BET PER HAND TO BREAK EVEN. AND 2 BIG BETS TO MAKE ONE BIG BET PER HOUR PROFIT.
I think that is hard to come by. first off...the "mistakes by other players"...are never full ev mistakes....cause they ussually have some outs to even the worst of calls.
any more thoughts????

Re: Beatable Game??
 

Another problem, becomes the whole casino experience. You rightly factored in the dealer tip, but I would suggest (I know this is sucky but 8 players really have to do it) going to the cage to get chips (less expectation of a tip) and not ordering drinks unless you are prepared to stiff the waitress. This stuff adds up big time if you play alot.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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its beatable if there are at least 2 asians at the table.

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haha yea...

*checks location*

maybe next time

Re: Beatable Game??
 

I play a 10/20 game with 5% rake up to 15 euro (that's close to 20$...). It's very beatable, so 8/16 with a 6$ could be beatable, but it's depending of the skill of the other players.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

You forgot the one hand an hour, where you steal the blinds.

You also don't understand how bad the worst 8-16 players are. There are probably players who are going to lose enough to pay for the rake for the entire table, and if you have a couple more donaters, there probably is enough money at risk on the table, that you can make a big bet an hour, if you play well enough.

Do you play online? Can you beat 2-4 online? If so, you probably can beat 8-16 live.

I almost suspect that because you aren't sure that the game is beatable, it probably isn't for you.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

The Canterbury 8/16 is a gold mine, and is plenty beatable.

But it can be a wild ride, so play TAG and don't tilt.

And always play with 3+ Asians if you can.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

It's beatable, end of discussion.

If we all were able to beat 2/4 and the california drop was 3+1 (pot size irrelevant) you can most certaintly beat this game.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

My local 8-16 game at $5+$1 rake I was beating for $6/hour. I am by no means the world's best player, so yeah, I think your game is beatable for probably $4+/hour assuming you win 2 pots an hour or whatever and you at least play as well as I do.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

8-16 is generally beatable. Don't over analyze it though, since it's a pretty straight forward calculation. If you're a decent player you should be able to make 1BB/hr and if you're good, you can make two. You can't make 2BB/hr at higher stakes, but at 8-16 you can. So that's $32/hr. And at that win rate, you should be winning between 3 and 4 pots per hour, costing about $20/hr. And there you are.

Note that if you CAN beat the game for 2BB/hr, then you should move up in stakes, because the drop is the same at 10, 15 and 20 games, and although the players will be better up to say 20-40, they're not THAT much better.

Play until you can beat the game, then move up, whether it takes 2 months, or two years.

Oh, and ignore anyone who talks about bad players "giving you beats" and "bigger swings" and other such nonsense. Bad players are always good for your win rate.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

Yes, easily.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
8-16 is generally beatable. Don't over analyze it though, since it's a pretty straight forward calculation. If you're a decent player you should be able to make 1BB/hr and if you're good, you can make two. You can't make 2BB/hr at higher stakes, but at 8-16 you can. So that's $32/hr. And at that win rate, you should be winning between 3 and 4 pots per hour, costing about $20/hr. And there you are.

Note that if you CAN beat the game for 2BB/hr, then you should move up in stakes, because the drop is the same at 10, 15 and 20 games, and although the players will be better up to say 20-40, they're not THAT much better.

Play until you can beat the game, then move up, whether it takes 2 months, or two years.

Oh, and ignore anyone who talks about bad players "giving you beats" and " bigger swings " and other such nonsense. Bad players are always good for your win rate.

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Of course this is true but "swinginess" is not to be ignored. Unless you have played in the Canterbury 8/16 then you honestly have no idea what is in store. Its generally a game of maniacs, and it is always super loose. Though its good for your winrate if you do not go in prepared to take some ridiculous beats you will tilt off alot of money. I only add that caveat, bc honestly people are stunned at how loose it is compared to other 8/16, 9/18, and 10/20 games around the country.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
8-16 is generally beatable. Don't over analyze it though, since it's a pretty straight forward calculation. If you're a decent player you should be able to make 1BB/hr and if you're good, you can make two. You can't make 2BB/hr at higher stakes, but at 8-16 you can. So that's $32/hr. And at that win rate, you should be winning between 3 and 4 pots per hour, costing about $20/hr. And there you are.

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I think 8/16 is beatable for $32/hr INCLUDING the rake. At least the games in L.A. are, and I have the stats to prove it. (Actually, my winrate lifetime is $37.27 -- mostly Bike & Hawaiian Gardens, with some Normandie, Wynn, and Bellagio too -- and L.A. games took $4 out of the pot when I was playing, $5 now).

Re: Beatable Game??
 

I know in some underground cardrooms the rake is 10% max 10 at their 1/2NL games. Clearly that is unbeatable. Ive seen other places that have 5/5NL with 10% no-[censored]-cap rake. That is unbeatable.

What you're describing is quite beatable depending on the table conditions.


Somewhere in between those two rake structure lies the point where a game makes the transition from just barely beatable to unbeatable. But there's no way for anyone to know... because we cant quantify their badness, and we dont know how you play.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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[ QUOTE ]
8-16 is generally beatable. Don't over analyze it though, since it's a pretty straight forward calculation. If you're a decent player you should be able to make 1BB/hr and if you're good, you can make two. You can't make 2BB/hr at higher stakes, but at 8-16 you can. So that's $32/hr. And at that win rate, you should be winning between 3 and 4 pots per hour, costing about $20/hr. And there you are.

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I think 8/16 is beatable for $32/hr INCLUDING the rake. At least the games in L.A. are, and I have the stats to prove it. (Actually, my winrate lifetime is $37.27 -- mostly Bike & Hawaiian Gardens, with some Normandie, Wynn, and Bellagio too -- and L.A. games took $4 out of the pot when I was playing, $5 now).

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WINNING 3 OR 4 POTS AN HOUR?!?!?!....assuming 40 hands an hour....you would need to play almost 40-50% of your starting hands....are you playing that many?
please tell me what starting hands you are playing to get that rate of return?

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
WINNING 3 OR 4 POTS AN HOUR?!?!?!....assuming 40 hands an hour....you would need to play almost 40-50% of your starting hands....are you playing that many?
please tell me what starting hands you are playing to get that rate of return?




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It isn't which hands you play, but how you play them that lets you win 3 or 4 hands an hour.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
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WINNING 3 OR 4 POTS AN HOUR?!?!?!....assuming 40 hands an hour....you would need to play almost 40-50% of your starting hands....are you playing that many?
please tell me what starting hands you are playing to get that rate of return?




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It isn't which hands you play, but how you play them that lets you win 3 or 4 hands an hour.

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are you saying a player ...playing 20-25% of his starting hands....should be able to win 3 to 4 hands per hour at CCC ..$8/$16.....you must play ther....????
I am playing 23% of my hands...and winning just over 2 hands an hour.....
do you think the problem is my playing after the flop?
perhaps folding too much?? or something...

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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I play a 10/20 game with 5% rake up to 15 euro (that's close to 20$...). It's very beatable, so 8/16 with a 6$ could be beatable, but it's depending of the skill of the other players.

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I've heard of rakes like this. Apparently the big casino in melbourne has a $10 rake as well. I'd say those games are prob. still beatable too I'd imagine, but not for over 1BB/hr even for the best players over 1000's of hours.

If you're complaining about a $4 max rake, come on, that's nothing to complain about. That is so standard, and bad-beat jackpots generally have a 2% drop to the house for adminstrative fees, so $0.98-$0.99 is going back to players, eventually. There is equity there. Plus in Canada, tipping is not standard on every pot (being cheap has it's perks). And, stealing blinds, though not a reality in a typical 8/16 game, is a big part of 15/30+, where there is no rake.
4/8 is beatable w/ the same rake, 8/16 is def. beatable too!! loosen up or stay online! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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You forgot the one hand an hour, where you steal the blinds.

You also don't understand how bad the worst 8-16 players are. There are probably players who are going to lose enough to pay for the rake for the entire table, and if you have a couple more donaters, there probably is enough money at risk on the table, that you can make a big bet an hour, if you play well enough.

Do you play online? Can you beat 2-4 online? If so, you probably can beat 8-16 live.

I almost suspect that because you aren't sure that the game is beatable, it probably isn't for you.

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I do play online....and the games online...and the game at CCC.....are too different animals.
but ...how do you compare them....to make such a statement?
I mean...what makes beating the 2/4 online....a measure of if you/I can beat the 8/16 at CCC?
the game at CCC is always loose....sometimes aggressive.
playing less hands preflop than the maniacs...and having pot odds on your calls after the flop....is this not enough to beat the game?

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
WINNING 3 OR 4 POTS AN HOUR?!?!?!....assuming 40 hands an hour....you would need to play almost 40-50% of your starting hands....are you playing that many?
please tell me what starting hands you are playing to get that rate of return?

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Cancel my previous post. You cannot beat 8-16.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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Of course this is true but "swinginess" is not to be ignored.

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Yes it is.


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Unless you have played in the Canterbury 8/16 then you honestly have no idea what is in store.

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Yes I do.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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Of course this is true but "swinginess" is not to be ignored.

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Yes it is.


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Unless you have played in the Canterbury 8/16 then you honestly have no idea what is in store.

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Yes I do.

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Well since you say so it must be true. Nice argument you win.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

So, if there are people who can beat 9/18, but not 8/16, what is the rake thresh-hold?

Beating 8/16 for less than 1BB/hr is not a reflection of the rake.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

Judging from OPs posts I'm pretty sure he will have moved to LA and be crushing 400/800 by the time I am playing 60/120.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

I play the $6-$12 at Canterbury. It has the same rake structure as the $8-$16 game and is very beatable. It often plays very loose (6+ players to the flop), and the aggressiveness varies tremendously. Note-- I did not say that I myself actually beat the game. I'm just saying that it is beatable. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I'm one of those players that avoids the $8-$16 because of the much increased aggressiveness. I'm not really playing poker for the money though. I like a game where I can see plenty of flops. When 5 bets are going in pre-flop, reasonably tight pre-flop play is required to be a break-even player, even if the game is loose. In the $6-$12, though, I can get away with playing alot of extra hands in the 6-7 way pots for 1-2 bets pre-flop. They cost me some money, perhaps even enough to make me a small net loser in the game (time will tell), but they are not big mistakes in a loose passive game. I'm talking mainly about suited trash type hands.

What I find interesting is how little understanding of loose games most otherwise solid players have. Which hand would you rather have on the flop in a 5-6 handed pot:

Hand 1 AJ
Hand 2 K7s

Flop Js 8s 7h

People don't seem to get that the K7s is a monster money favorite most of the time with a flop like that. Yes, it probably made a bad call pre-flop (although in a loose game it isn't nearly as bad as some people seem to think). Once the flop comes, though, I would take the K7s every time. In fact, the AJ will often be a money dog to all the draws out against it. If raising won't thin the field, it should consider just calling instead of raising.

Disclosure-- I started playing live again after the Neteller issues. I had been playing microlimits online. In the past I played regularly at 15-30 at Canterbury and was a sizable winner (not enough hours to be statistically relevant). I have played about 75 hours this year and am a small winner $8/hr. I probably won't play more than 400 hours this year, so I won't really have enough hours to determine if my loose style of play is winning or losing.

It is surely more interesting than playing TAG poker though [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Beatable Game??
 

The 8/16 here in AZ at CAZ and Gila river is easily good for 2bb/hr, sometimes more.

Frack, 4/8 is beatable with this rake if the game is juicy. And I've sat in plenty of 8/16 games just as juicy as the 4/8 games right next to me.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

I think terms like "win rate" which is some abstract way of measuring how well you play. or "a excellent player should make 2BB per hour".....are thrown around way too much..
game conditions are constantly changing....and the player needs to adjust to these changes....
I think having the tools to change with the game....and being able to "identify" when the game is beatable or walking away from a bad game....make a winning player.
Obviously, I am still working on both.

beat the bad players....learn to identify them

beat the "bad games"(good games)...learn to identify them

and most importantly...
DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF(tilt, tired, pissed...no patience).....

thanks for all the feedback.,,,,I learned a lot...

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]

$8/$16 with a $4+$2 rake.....is perhaps beatable for $5 a hour....if the players are bad. (perhaps true)
I will try some numbers...see if you agree.
A good tight player plays 20% of his starting hands.
A normal dealer deals 35 hands and hour.
The good player is seeing the flop 7 times an hour.
he hits the flop 1/3 times. so he is winning MAYBE 2 hands an hour.
he is paying 3.5 times the blinds to play ($6 x3.5=$21)
the good player must make up $21 per hour (blinds) plus two rakes of $12....or $33 in two hands per hour to break even. so he needs a profit of $16.50 per hand (he wins) to break even.
thats one big bet. so ..
YOU NEED MISTAKES (by the other players) THAT TOTAL ATLEAST ONE BIG BET PER HAND TO BREAK EVEN. AND 2 BIG BETS TO MAKE ONE BIG BET PER HOUR PROFIT.
I think that is hard to come by. first off...the "mistakes by other players"...are never full ev mistakes....cause they ussually have some outs to even the worst of calls.
any more thoughts????

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Just glanced at this quickly, and am not really interested in the conversation, but isn't he paying $42 an hour in blinds? ($4+$8) x 3.5 orbits/hr = $12 x 3.5 = $42.

Also, aren't you forgetting to include the money that player loses on the 5/7 hands per hour he played but did not win?

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
I play the $6-$12 at Canterbury. It has the same rake structure as the $8-$16 game and is very beatable. It often plays very loose (6+ players to the flop), and the aggressiveness varies tremendously. Note-- I did not say that I myself actually beat the game. I'm just saying that it is beatable. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I'm one of those players that avoids the $8-$16 because of the much increased aggressiveness. I'm not really playing poker for the money though. I like a game where I can see plenty of flops. When 5 bets are going in pre-flop, reasonably tight pre-flop play is required to be a break-even player, even if the game is loose. In the $6-$12, though, I can get away with playing alot of extra hands in the 6-7 way pots for 1-2 bets pre-flop. They cost me some money, perhaps even enough to make me a small net loser in the game (time will tell), but they are not big mistakes in a loose passive game. I'm talking mainly about suited trash type hands.

What I find interesting is how little understanding of loose games most otherwise solid players have.

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I 100% agree with this analysis of why I play 6/12 at Canterbury opposed to the crazy aggressive 8/16. The 6/12 game is just as loose but a lot less aggressive meaning you see a lot of flops multiway but don't have to put in 4 or 5 bets before seeing if you hit decent and can continue. You can play a lot of small pairs, suited connectors and suited one gappers and make big hands that will be paid off by the chasers.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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You can play a lot of small pairs, suited connectors and suited one gappers and make big hands that will be paid off by the chasers.

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I do the same and am successful at the 8/16 and 15/30 games.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

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are you saying a player ...playing 20-25% of his starting hands....should be able to win 3 to 4 hands per hour at CCC ..$8/$16....

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It depends on the game. In a normal game, you get 40 hands an hour, so you see the flop 10 times an hour, and if you win a third of those, you are in the three/four pots an hour range. To do that, probably one of those pots, is a small orphan pot that you pick up.

I played in a game today, where there were no orphan pots, it was a cranked up 8-16 game, where one maniac dumped 13 or 14 racks, in about 4 hours. You needed to be able to showdown to win hands, but you also had to be able to showdown some pretty meager holdings, because the pots were so huge that you couldn't fold at the river. I probably averaged more like two pots an hour in that game, and came out with a nice win.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

Did you see the part about 4 or 5 bets to see the flop, which in my experience is typical of 8/16 at Canterbury. I'm not saying 8/16 isn't good or can't be beat but I am saying, and I think most everyone whose played at Canterbury will agree, it is way more aggressive than 6/12.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

[ QUOTE ]
Did you see the part about 4 or 5 bets to see the flop, which in my experience is typical of 8/16 at Canterbury. I'm not saying 8/16 isn't good or can't be beat but I am saying, and I think most everyone whose played at Canterbury will agree, it is way more aggressive than 6/12.

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Yes the 8/16 is more aggressive. But it's not 4 or 5 bets to the flop every single hand. At least not normally.

Re: Beatable Game??
 

My first BB hand a few weeks ago is AA. Three limpers and SB call, I raise. Next guy 3 bets, another 4 bets, third limper caps, SB folds, I happily call.

I think the spazzy aggressive can usually be attributed to one or two players at a table. Perhaps you know an older gentlemen, Mike, who often suggests a round of straddles to create some action. There's an early 20ish kid who is extremely LAGish, raising and reraising pre and posf flop with garbage and legit hands. And when the other players are easily intimidated by his agggression, he collects lots of chips. Obviously, he experiences significant variance but it's intentional, and he doesn't tilt. Another guy I've played routinely raises preflop to create a big pot. In my opinion, it's uncommon to have many pots over a few hour session that go 4-5 bets preflop. I have difficulty dealing though with the nearly incomprehensible call downs that often win large pots.